Yes Michael, I agree - that is one beautiful photo. It really captures what a 3 year old’s world is about. Engrossed in the moment and just exploring and trying to understand the world around him. Your photo reminded me of a few shots I took of my kids ( now in their 20’s ) when they were at that stage. Thanks for the trip down nostalgia lane - and for sharing that ‘kodak moment’ with us.
Ros,an eternity pondering Hell or an eternity pondering Heaven?????.Because People are people and the grass is always greener etc My opinion is if my kids are going to ponder Hell it will only be because they are in Heaven which is where I like to think of them ending up. The best thing we can do for our kids is lead by example and be there when we are needed.
Cheers Ian Lawther.
A god would already know, wouldn’t He? ......‘thinking’ wouldn’t come into it surely.
Or is He making this up as He goes along??
This thread exposed an extreme view in this christian group. And I see that others agree in the basic premise that all 5 years olds are guilty and should feel disgusted with themselves.
Do you guys realise how that would look on The Age front page.
I’d suggest that way of thinking could cause your children to be removed from your care ......and I don’t think it would be unfounded.
I can see what Dannii is saying .............but dooesn’t change the fact that his view is quite illegal in this country. Children cannot be held responsible and especially wrong to be imposing this on them.
If an Islamist had said something like what Dannii said no one would let him off with an aside about “Oh, but he doesn’t have kids!”
Not good enough…..I’d suggest you don’t let him near kids ......there is all types of abuse.
if you guys disagrree with me I’m prepared to take Danniis statement to our Child Welfare people and get an opinion of it’s legality ......I’d suggest they’d be in agreement with me.
Just came back to say that all sounds a little harsh .....but with the questions being asked at the moment of how much of this Irish fiasco is Irish and how much is Catholic I have to say that this violence against children whether written, spoken or carried out makes no difference but is all about cultures and backgrounds.
To hear an aussie saying that a child has to carry blame was a shock to me .........I can see these problems are alive and well still in our culture.
Well Mike the majority of Christians on this board (me included) have already put it on record that they advocate a more sensitive approach to talking about eternal issues with kids.
Whether you choose to misrepresent the majority opinion (no offence) is not our problem.
Yes God’s truth is constantly under attack. Satan hates God’s truth and knows God’s Word has the power to convict and save.
If the UK and I know certains states of the US have already banned pretty much any Christian views and opinions from schools and other public places we can expect the same over here. Any teaching on homosexuality for sure will get you jailed soon.
This is the time when Christians will either gird themselves up with God’s Word, dig deep and stand or their hearts will fail them and they will flee the Church and some may even renounce their faith.
We shouldn’t be surprised these days have come. Jesus warned us of them.
Hi Milica heres a copy of an email I just received.
Cheers Ian Lawther.
—- On Sun, 5/17/09, charlotte <lady197@mchsi.com> wrote:
From: charlotte <lady197@mchsi.com>
Subject: Fw: FW: Fw: The Sneeze
To: (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 7:05 PM
May God Bless and Save our country!!!!!!!!
THE SNEEZE
They walked in tandem, each of the ninety-two students filing into the
already crowded auditorium. With their rich maroon gowns flowing .. and the
traditional caps, they looked almost .... as grown up as they felt..
Dads swallowed hard behind broad smiles, and Moms freely brushed away tears.
This class would NOT pray during the commencements——not by choice, but
because of a recent court ruling prohibiting it.
The principal and several students were careful to stay within the
guidelines allowed by the ruling. They gave inspirational and challenging
speeches, but no one mentioned divine guidance and no one asked for
blessings on the graduates or their families.
The speeches were nice, but they were routine…..until the final speech
received a standing ovation.
A solitary student walked proudly to the microphone. He stood still and
silent for just a moment, and then, it happened.
All 92 students, every single one of them, suddenly SNEEZED!!!!
The student on stage.. simply looked at the audience and said,
“GOD BLESS YOU, each and every one of you!” And he walked off stage…
The audience exploded into applause. This graduating class had found a
unique way to invoke God’s blessing on their future with or without the
court’s approval.
Isn’t this a wonderful story? Pass it on to all your friends…......and
GOD BLESS YOU!!!!
This is a true story; it happened at the University of Maryland ..
Oh, how I wish THIS one would take off and FILL the whole Country!!!
Well Mike the majority of Christians on this board (me included) have already put it on record that they advocate a more sensitive approach to talking about eternal issues with kids.
Whether you choose to misrepresent the majority opinion (no offence) is not our problem.
Lets get this straight Arthur, the thread started out about christians being stifled in what they can say.
Well I’d say that some of the comments here are far from stifled and I’m surprised it didn’t spur another debate as to the legitimacy of that what was said by Dannii for instance.
Strange that didn’t happen I thought. Only reason could be that you agree in principle ....gutless stand is ‘in principle’
I come here and be as honest as I can ...no point otherwise!!
What I’ve gleened from the convo was that you all agree in principle with Dannii .....but don’t wish to go on record but would rather say you use a more sensitive approach.
What does that mean?? .....when you accuse young children of being disgusting in Gods eyes do you smile or something? Whether you say it or think it ...I see it as just as bad if not just undecided.
Now I understand where this lack of respect for children actually comes from….christians believe children are full of sin.
I showed my sons neighbour who is moslem a transcript of this thread and he and his wife were disgusted. (Yes guys, even his wife was allowed to speak for herself ......I honestly think you guys believe all the spin ........try talking to Mr and Mrs average moslem and see if they are the evil wife bashing thugs you guys seem to represent them as ....sad really)
See I was in a loving family and they only ever wanted the best for me .......and in so doing didn’t really follow their hearts in sending me to the ‘fathers’ at boarding school. They did what ‘apparently’ was in the best interest of my faith.
They buggered that up ......literally!
I’d hate you guys to do similar to your kids through some misguided belief.
Can I say that something that happened to me years ago flashed back at me as this thread developed.
I was a street kid in newcastle sorta living on the beach and along come these evangelists to ‘save’ us.
It was the 60s and I didn’t see the media at all (at all) but I recall some yankee evangelist getting around aus and was spurring do gooders holding rallys everywhere….....tents of people in some cases ...not sure if it was everywhere but certainly was the norm in newcastle ....heaps of christian immigrants posted to the iron works .....where I ended up myself.
anyway this day on the beach these well dressed (looking like an early stones poster in sharp suits) came up to our group and started with the hell and damnation routine on a few of us who were all living together at RedHead Point .....surfers paradise!!!
This went on for a while as we didn’t really care and maybe amused by the convo.
This old lady who was sitting on the beach in earshot of us came over and let these guys have it about scarring her grandchildren and she literally chased them off the beach ....hehehehee…....we were all amused and she came back muttering under her breath and was obviously so angry.
Never thought about it much but once I was a parent myself I started to realise what she was on about. Children are like sponges and suck up every emotion and move of their parents ....I watch my 18mths old grandson testing his own facial expressions on everyone at the moment ....all learnt. he has most of them down pat heheeeee even though they are all exaggerated ....his eyes nearly jump out of his head with his ‘surprised look’ heheheehee .......such a wonderous age and obviously nothing sinister in the background. All learnt behaviour from what I can gather from my observations.
I can’t imagine how my 13 year old grandson would take it if I told him that he should know that absolutely nothing /he/ can ever do will ever please Me.
I don’t see how applying the same to God would have any good affect on a childs ability to go forward in there development ....surely must injure them.
I just can’t come at this premise you guys have of children being laden with sin to the point they should be loathing themselves .......sorry but on this one you have lost me.
This is a true story; it happened at the University of Maryland ..
Hi Ian,
Thanks for sharing that inspirational story. While it really happened, it was not at the University of Maryland. Here’s the source :
“The incident the e-mail is based upon took place on 20 May 2001 during the commencement exercises at Washington Community High School in Washington, Illinois. With the help of the ACLU, the family of Natasha Appenheimer, that year’s valedictorian, brought suit to prevent the inclusion of the invocation and benediction traditionally given at the school’s commencement ceremony.
The suit was decided in the favor of the Appenheimers when, three days before the ceremony, the court handed down a temporary injunction barring the inclusion of the prayers on the basis of their having been deemed “school sponsored” (and thereby an unconstitutional violation of the first amendment’s “establishment clause”). Though the school had said it would contest the ruling that barred it from sponsoring prayer at its graduation ceremonies, it dropped such plans in July 2001 once it came to some appreciation of how much such a legal battle might cost.”
Hi Kevin,Thanks for the info I just copied and pasted an email as it was sent to me ,my second go at copy and paste ,the first was a web adress which had a dot to many or too few, life was a lot simpler for me with a split nib and ink well.
Hi Ros I , am glad you realise we are only sharing opinions and so as to get back on topic I have to say that for any child to be indoctrinated with any religious(of any flavour) dogma by an over zealous adult, parent or other wise, is surely well on their way to being an abused child.I hope you had or are having a great break.
Cheers All Ian Lawther.
Britain is no longer a Christian nation and the Church of England could die out within a generation, an Anglican bishop has warned.
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent
Published: 9:00PM BST 27 Jun 2009
The Rt Rev Paul Richardson said declining church attendance and the rise in multiculturalism meant that “Christian Britain is dead”.
He criticised his fellow bishops for failing to appreciate the scale of the crisis and warned that their inaction could seal the Church’s fate.
As one of the Church’s longest-serving bishops, the comments by the assistant Bishop of Newcastle are set to fuel the debate over its future.
The General Synod, the Church’s parliament, will next month consider proposals to cut the number of bishops and senior clergy amid fears over the Church’s finances.
Writing for The Sunday Telegraph, Bishop Richardson said: “Many bishops prefer to turn their heads, to carry on as if nothing has changed, rather than face the reality that Britain is no longer a Christian nation.
“Many of them think that we are still living in the 1950s – a period described by historians as representing a hey day for the established church.”
He said that the Church had lost more than one in ten of its regular worshippers between 1996 and 2006, with a fall from more than one million to 880,000.
“At this rate it is hard to see the church surviving for more than 30 years though few of its leaders are prepared to face that possibility,” said Bishop Richardson.
Nearly half of the population in England regard themselves as belonging to the Church of England, while seven in ten described themselves as Christian in the last census.
However, the Bishop said that the fall in church marriages and baptisms revealed that Britain was no longer a Christian nation.
The number of babies being baptised has fallen from 609 in every 1,000 at the turn of the twentieth century to only 128 in 2006/7 and church marriages have also dropped.
Bishop Richardson said: “The church is being hit by a double whammy: on the one hand it confronts the challenge of institutional decline but on the other hand it has to face the rise of cultural and religious pluralism in Britain.”
He says that the way the Church responds to this will be “crucial in determining whether it will be able to survive as a viable organisation and make a contribution to national life”.
“At present church leaders show little signs of understanding the situation. They don’t understand the culture we now live in.”
The bishop believed it is inevitable that disestablishment will happen and suggests that the Church should take a lead on the issue rather than being dictated to by Parliament.
“Rather than try to cling on to their places in the House of Lords, they should take the initiative by withdrawing, which shows that they appreciate Christian Britain is dead.”
Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury has also delivered a bleak assessment of the future of Christianity in this country, claiming previously that Britain’s Churches are in such serious decline that if they were shops they would have been declared bankrupt long ago.
Attendance figures on Christmas Day and Christmas Eve have provided encouragement for the Church of England, showing that three million people attend services on these days and as many as 39 per cent go to some sort of Christmas service.
The Rt Rev David James, Bishop of Bradford, said that church leaders were aware of the challenge they face, but suggested that there are signs of hope.
“The Church is always one generation from extinction. That’s true of any organisation,” he said. “Many of our bishops and congregations are awake to the need to reach out and have been doing so succesfully.”
Bishop James added that many young people are now attending alternative forms of church worship and also pointed to a rise in adult baptisms.
Another article, on the formation of a new group of confessing Anglicans:
Bishops back UK launch of orthodox Anglican fellowship
by Jennifer Gold
Posted: Sunday, June 28, 2009, 11:55 Five English bishops are set to join the launch of a new fellowship for orthodox Anglicans who say they want to stay true to Scripture and get on with the Great Commission of sharing the Gospel with the world.
The Fellow of Confessing Anglicans will be launched in Westminster on July 6 in the presence of the Bishops of Fulham, Lewes, Chichester and Rochester. The Bishop of Chester has sent greetings.
The gathering will also hear video and personal greetings from international guests including Nigerian Archbishop Nicholas Okoh and Archbishop Henri Orombi from Uganda.
Event spokesman and London vicar, the Rev Paul Perkin, said: “Some are staying in the Church, but failing to stand for Christian truth and practice; others are standing firm for Christian truth and practice, but are not staying. We are standing, and we are staying.”
The FCA is being launched just weeks after US and Canadian orthodox Anglicans held the inaugural assembly of the Anglican Church in North America in Bedford, Texas.
The ACNA is formed of around 700 orthodox Anglican congregations that broke away from The Episcopal Church in the US over its embrace of homosexuality and the consecration of an openly gay bishop in 2003.
The ACNA is headed by Bishop Bob Duncan, who told the assembly that much of mainline Protestantism was “finding itself adrift from its moorings” but that there was also a great Reformation underway in the Christian church that North American Anglicans were “very much in the midst of”.
Keith Ackerman, President of Forward in Faith in the US, was at the ACNA assembly and will join the FCA launch, where he will lead a main session on why he believes the FCA is a catalyst for united mission, ministry and focus for both orthodox Anglicans, both evangelical and Anglo Catholic.
Interesting. Not sure about the Anglo Catholics though.
This story out of Ireland isn’t helping the catholics Ros ....this has poisoned christianity in Britain for many ....most will be waiting to see what happens next ....this travesty extended world wide at the time with all their missionaries….indigenous peoples of the world wore the brunt of it which is missed by many. Roots of a warped view
skip down to WHY IS CLERICAL .....
I recall Kev jumping on Lizzy about her rant on the now dead SydAngForum about Ireland being the main source of paedophile priests and brothers and just how bad (she described every angle) the Irish clergy were
Kevin, rightly at the time, suggested she was using sweeping generalisations (from memory) ....which was kind I thought going by Lizzys language at the time (made me sit up and wonder what happened to Lizzy via the irish.)
Turns out Lizzy was right though Kevin. I will say I tended to agree with you at the time Kevin about Lizzys accusations….but she was right ....go figure.
What a disturbing report that is Michael. I don’t fully recall that discussion with Lizzy - but I am overwhelmed by the huge statistical dimension of the problem as revealed in the report. Sad indeed - and most horrific.
Gives you a different insght into where some of these behaviours come from.
I was of the same mind as yourself in the thread Kevin and with the given info/news of late I can see we all need to keep an open mind to suggestions from others as to how things get the way they do.
Here’s a tag to our chat on SydAngForum
I think with this realisation going on as to the extent of the general abuse and where it sprang from is causing many to look within their own religious groups. Much media and demontrations still going on in britain about this history and where do we go from now.
Many of the issues are unsolved or badly addressed so far from what I can see. But is early days yet in a problem that spread itself across the world while the vatican fuelled it along.
Shocking indictment on christianity generally ....lots must have been aware of what was going on.
What I would like to know is where are the Christians in the Hierarchy of the Roman catholic Church The Hierarchy knew their were serious problems with the Priest(ref Broken Rites) who sexually abused my son ,three years before they let him loose in Saint Brigids parish in Healesville Vic. they didn’t warn anybody. Christians??? No Way. Then A couple of years ago they inflicted on this parish another Priest with obvious behavioral signs of pedophilic tendencies. A teacher who was astute enough to recognize these signs and alerted the proper authorities was treated like a leper and laughed out of her job Christians ??? No Way.
Monday of this week that same Priest was convicted of sexual abuse of a minor and
possession of thousands of pornographic images of children, Christians ???Don’t think so .
To make matters worse this Animal was ordained a priest two and a half years before the offences were committed. A fully Independent Government Investigation is needed to protect our children and needed NOW.
No Cheers Ian Lawther
Scariest thing about this priest just convicted from healesville is that the story never made it to the papers or any news for that matter.
How powerful are these people when they can stop the news of cronic child abuse in our midst and no one is the wiser.
That what really scare me and should bother everybody is NOTHING IN THE MEDIA about this paedophile.
This is the reason why no one is going to church anymore, whether ang/ cath/whatever….all tarred with the same brush…a haven for misfits…can’t trust the leaders either (plenty of proof of that). Their use of secrecy concerning paedophiles in their midst is obvious and how can you trust anyone that uses thesde methods especially when it concerns our kids.
I don’t see nor hear anything from any of these leaders to change my mind about the methods they use.
.....and yet people still go and foolishly trust them again.
The Healesville case is the second in a row in the same parish ....and still they say nothing to their parisheners.
another for instance ....the St Vincent de Paul is having a expansion push and asking the communities (eaglehawk for one) to give money to them at the moment. At the same time the heads and senior staff of the Vincentians have been found to be running one of the biggest paed orgs in aus.
And now they need some help with money for their defence.
Of course we all know about this because it’s in all the papers ..........NOT!!!!!!
Why is that? ...........because they are too powerful and control what we see and hear in our media!!
and if you think me full of it then why isn’t the vincentian story in our newspapers ......Bathurst College was a place of bastardisation and manipulation and unfortunately many of our leaders come through there.
When the public see some honesty, maybe they will have a look in ......at the moment the christian churches are one big club manipulating our legal system to their own ends against their own so called flock. Aspinall is no different than Pell ........same bucket of the proverbial.
Everyone here will say Oh my God these guys are obsessed.
I can’t understand people being this blind about what IS happening ....this is not a ‘past thing’ .....healsevilles in the here and now!
I’ve said enough and will leave it alone now. I give up as I jhear it in the language here that tut tut, it ain’t about anyone I know so who cares ...and blindly do what you do and the creeps will continue to molest your kids.
yours etc.,
mike
add a little true story from up the road here toward mildura. A little girl was found to be molested/raped by a bloke in a small town….the little girl didn’t understand that the guy was locked up in jail for a few years. But she did understand when the town saw how depressed and withdrawn she still was proceeded to organise the burning down of the creeps house. She was asked to watch while the townn torched his house ....she now knows the community care about her and she can see that the guy ain’t coming back!
Apparently the towns CFA brought an esky to the fire and never broke out a hose.
This is the sort of response of indignation I’d like to see from the leaders of the churches but instead you see them fighting the moral and legal fight they do as if the VICTIM was the CAUSE in the first place. And the victim ends up feeling like alienated scum.
Hey Michael, you’re being a bit unfair to the ordinary Christian person who has had nothing to do with any of this stuff. And I asked you on an earlier thread what could an ordinary person (without power or connections) actually do? I don’t accept that all Christians are responsible in some way, or are turning a blind eye.
I’m not convinced that all churches are the same. Sure, there’s been abuse cases and cover-ups all around, but the institutionalised stuff seems uniquely Catholic.
This thread was supposed to discuss the situation of Christian believers in a world which is increasingly at odds with Christian faith, with particular reference to the situation in the UK. Perhaps I should have entitled it ‘evangelicals in the UK’ or something. Your segue - Christian - Catholic church - child abuse, takes it right off topic. And I am more interested in the individual than the institution, anyway. Some people, you know, actually believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and will come again to judge the living and the dead, and are now finding living constistenly with and and expressing that belief (which used to be mainstream) is causing offense and provoking adverse reactions. You shouldn’t lump all these people in with a group of child-molestors just because of the label ‘Christian’.
I would prefer you had a child abuse thread, or that Luke had just deleted the post which named names instead of closing your thread. I have no problem with you using this forum to raise awareness of the child abuse situation. Clearly other means are blocked in various ways. I’m sorry I don’t think this forum has a high enough or connected enough readership to really offer any help. Have you thought of writing a book?(end rant)
‘hear hear’ and put a sheet of A4 (will do) on your head while you say it.
I hear you too…...don’t mean to hijack your thread Ros, but really the british papers are full of this irish catholic history and people everywhere are recognising the complicity of these old established orgs and how they manipulate our society ...basically waking up to a few things with the old order and looking for something new and not steeped in some old boys club.
As a womenm Ros you must have seen this yourself in whatever old org otr group you deal with. A womens opinion ain’t valued in the true sense of the word but again that’s off topic yopu would all say.
Well I say this stuff is not off topic and the reason lots stay away. I can’t find anything in this stuff myself at all that shows me the way. Best I look elsewhere.
ps…...my thread IS closed ......not that I blame Luke, he got paranoid that I couldn’t prove what was said
pps what you can do as an average person is ask your elders “what the ????” ....I notice no one ask Aspinall “What the???” maybe the anglicans wouldn’t have so many peeved victims if you’d done it in the first place ...I’ve met many anglican victims ...at the conference on Clerical Abuse at Syd Uni ...and through the SydAng forum….none were happy ....maybe ask Aspinall “why’s that??!!”
pppps ...just another thing….when I had my own business I used to go through the accounts every month and see who WASN’T buying anymore ....and I ring or go visit them and see what the problem was.
That was BEFORE I focused on new customers ....lots can be learnt!
Big clue here for the church ;)
‘hear hear’ and put a sheet of A4 (will do) on your head while you say it.
I hear you too…...don’t mean to hijack your thread Ros, but really the british papers are full of this irish catholic history and people everywhere are recognising the complicity of these old established orgs and how they manipulate our society ...basically waking up to a few things with the old order and looking for something new and not steeped in some old boys club.
As a womenm Ros you must have seen this yourself in whatever old org otr group you deal with. A womens opinion ain’t valued in the true sense of the word but again that’s off topic yopu would all say.
Well I say this stuff is not off topic and the reason lots stay away. I can’t find anything in this stuff myself at all that shows me the way. Best I look elsewhere.
ps…...my thread IS closed ......not that I blame Luke, he got paranoid that I couldn’t prove what was said
pps what you can do as an average person is ask your elders “what the ????” ....I notice no one ask Aspinall “What the???” maybe the anglicans wouldn’t have so many peeved victims if you’d done it in the first place ...I’ve met many anglican victims ...at the conference on Clerical Abuse at Syd Uni ...and through the SydAng forum….none were happy ....maybe ask Aspinall “why’s that??!!”
Hm - I suppose the general argument that people are hostile to Christianity because of the scandals etc is not off topic, I’ll grant you that. And Anglicans can be a bit sexist, I’ll grant you that too.
Not sure what you meant by finding stuff that shows you the way. When I said I don’t think anyone on this forum can help, I meant in the sense of doing anything concrete about the sex abuse. Perhaps there is, and we’re not seeing it. On the Aspinall case, there was discontent with Aspinall, from his (Brisbane) synod I think. I’d have to look it up. Maybe you’re right, more people should have said more. What he said was outrageous.
I think you’ve got a couple of questions going on. One is the concrete here and now question of what to do, how can this be stopped. The other is what I’d call the big question - why? The way you’ve been looking at the history of Ireland, and seeing hope in bringing up kids in a better way seems to me to be your efforts to find this answer. I’d say the Ireland stuff shows the way human wickedness transmits and changes form, and is passed around and grows. Wasn’t the potato famine also made much worse by the Imperial actions of the English? (refering to the role of the potato famine in the Irish problem) But wickedness has its root in the rebellion against God which has corrupted all mankind. Bringing up the next generation better can’t cure it (although it may help). The only cure is in Christ, which is why Christians will hold onto Christ even though the churches might do bad stuff. Years ago, when I became a Christian, I thought through why other religions or ways that I knew of or could think of, couldn’t offer the same cure Christ does, but I don’t have it at the top of my head to articulate satifactorily without thinking it through for a couple of hours. Maybe another post.
My great great grandfather brought his family to aus from the irish potato famine, and all it meant, to get away ......settled in Tassie away from the ‘establishment’ and prospered.
First generation that ventured back into the ‘established’ colleges etc was mine. Nothing changed from my experience ......sorry.
and I don’t see any attitude changing in the established church leaders at all.
So why would anyone want to get involved .....unless you have your blickers on.
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