This article primary school receptionist facing sack is disturbing. A little girl’s innocent conversation with a friend about heaven escalates.
1.5 year old girl talks to friend about heaven
2 She answers a question about hell, which scares another girl, who complains.
3.Christian girl is reprimanded.
4.Mother, an ancillary worker at the school, asks for prayer support via email.
5.email gets back to principal, who finds ‘untrue accusations about the school’
6.all this precipitates into an inquiry, newspaper reports, the effective suspension - and it seems, possible sacking - of the mother, her children also kept home,...
My thoughts:
1.The gospel is an offence to those who don’t believe.
2.Will we be seeing this sort of thing in Australia soon?
3.Or have we just accepted ‘no religion in the workplace’? - and is this ok?
4.Potentially faced with this kind of situation, we need to act wisely to prevent escalation if possible. (eg:prayer email should not contain anything which might backfire if seen by unfriendly eyes.)
Churches will be banned from turning down gay job applicants on the grounds of their sexuality under new anti-discrimination laws, a Government minister said.
By Matthew Moore 20 May 2009
Religious groups are to be forced to accept homosexual youth workers, secretaries and other staff, even if their faith holds same-sex relationships to be sinful.
Christian organisations fear that the tightened legislation, which is due to come into force next year, will undermine the integrity of churches and dilute their moral message.
It comes amid growing concern that Christians are being unfairly targeted by discrimination laws, following a number of high-profile cases of courts finding against believers who stand up for their faith.
Religious leaders had hoped to lobby for exemptions to the Equality Bill but Maria Eagle, the deputy equalities minister, has now indicated that it will cover almost all church employees.
“The circumstances in which religious institutions can practice anything less than full equality are few and far between,” she told delegates at the Faith, Homophobia, Transphobia, & Human Rights conference in London.
“While the state would not intervene in narrowly ritual or doctrinal matters within faith groups, these communities cannot claim that everything they run is outside the scope of anti-discrimination law.
“Members of faith groups have a role in making the argument in their own communities for greater LGBT acceptance, but in the meantime the state has a duty to protect people from unfair treatment.”
Under existing equalities legislation, any roles deemed to be necessary “for the purposes of an organised religion” are excluded from gay rights protection.
But the Equality Bill, which is currently passing through parliament, for the first time defines this as applying only to those who lead the liturgy or spend the majority of the time teaching doctrine - essentially just ministers, bishops and their equivalents in other faiths.
A spokesman for the Christian Institute, a religious charity, said that many churchgoers had deep concerns about how the bill would be enforced and accused politicians of hypocrisy.
“It would be absurd to pass a law demanding that the Labour Party employ card-carrying Conservative members, but that is effectively what churches are being told to do. We just want the same exceptions as political parties,” he said.
“Christians are sick to the back teeth of equality and diversity laws that put them to the back of the queue. We are quite prepared to accept that people will take a different view to use on moral and ethical questions, but that should not mean we have to withdraw from public life.”
Recent cases including the nurse suspended for offering to pray for a patient and the British Airways worker sent home for wearing a visible cross have left many believers afraid to go public with their faith at work.
Neil Addison, a Roman Catholic barrister and expert on religious discrimination law, said that the new legislation would leave churches powerless to defend the fabric of their organisation.
“This is a threat to religious identity. What we are losing is the right for organisations to make free choices,” he said.
A spokesman for the Church of England said that while it supports the broad objectives of the Bill it “retains some concerns about the practical application of some specific aspects”.
The Equality Bill, which was introduced to the Commons by Harriet Harman, the Minister for Women and Equality, will also strengthen laws against gender, age and disability discrimination.
A Government Equalities Office spokesman said: “The Equality Bill will not force a church to accept someone as a priest regardless of their sexual orientation or gender.
“Churches, synagogues, mosques and others will continue to have the freedom to choose who they employ in jobs which promote their religion. But where they provide services to the public they will have to treat everyone fairly.”
I think the outrage tends to be in schools because parents/others fear “brainwashing” - until approx. 12 y.o., the average child is not seen as able to question things they are taught (including religious beliefs).
From my studies in gifted education, & with reference to the large body of research literature available, I’d be inclined to agree - most young children accept what they hear & only start questioning/investigating it when they get into their teens. However, among gifted children of, say, IQ 125 to 200+
- even 4 y.o. ones are capable of analysing beliefs & desiring to separate truth from falsehood.
Don’t believe me? You might want to google these names (reknowned gifted-ed. researchers):
Miraca Gross
Leta Hollingworth
Linda Kreger Silverman
Joyce van Tassel-Baska
As for seeing opposition like this in Australian schools, I can only speak for NSW public schools. Outside of Special Religious Ed., people may be offended or divided as they were in that case Ros presented.
But that is what the true gospel of Jesus does. It offends, it is foolishness to unbelievers, a stumbling block to Jews, it divides people.
What then shall we do as Christians who see & believe all the Bible says about Jesus?
Shall we shut our mouths & not speak for fear of offending parents, teachers or others?
Shall we discourage our children from talking to their public school friends/classmates about Jesus, heaven, hell, other gospel matters?
Shall we avoid talking religion in the workplace?
I can’t, and I won’t.
Of course I won’t rush into conversations, God’s grace permitting. But when with colleagues we discuss casually what’s going on in our lives, as Christians we need to indicate how God is involved. What He’s doing, or not doing, what challenges He has for us, how we can face them with His strength.. ..
..Because we need to know God is in control & there are ETERNAL consequences for how we’ve chosen to treat Him (in Jesus).
And unsaved teachers, colleagues, parents, children - they need, equally, to know God is in control & that there are ETERNAL consequences for how they choose to treat Him (in Jesus).
What really does matter - offence to people now?
- Or them escaping (by belief in the Lord Jesus our Saviour) the consequences of their offence to our holy Creator God on the day of judgment?
Mike Judge, from the Christian Institute, said children should be allowed to discuss religion with each other without interference from teachers.
“This is the latest in a series where Christians are being persecuted for their religious beliefs. It is really getting to a point where it has to stop. I think the Government has got to start looking at its legislation.
“Christians are in the firing line, not other minority groups.”
Mr Read said: “An investigation by the governors of the school is being held into the conduct of a member of staff and at this stage I cannot comment any further.”
As The Daily Telegraph disclosed on Monday, teachers now face being disciplined if they discuss their religious beliefs in school.
The profession’s regulator, the General Teaching Council, has drawn up a new code of practice that states classroom staff must “promote equality and value diversity”.
It was an alleged lack of commitment to this requirement that was used to suspend Mrs Petrie.
Hi Ros, I was going to go through you post point my point but with my typeing skills I’m gunna cut to the my point.
What’s with a religion that teachs a 5 year old girl about “going to hell” (5yr olds words apparently)
Can’t the belief stand alone without scarring little children?
I remember being a scarred little catholic and it wasn’t nice at all .....nasty dreams at a young age that I still recall and caused me to go to mass an extra day a week (for the missionaries)
This article really misrepresents actual the story anyway ........as some googling would show (but don’t wish to go there as my point is about a 5 years old being brainwashed with fear which in modern society I thought was considered to be abused .
I can say I would object to my grandkids being told they will go to hell if they do that again!/i] ......that is just plain wrong!
5 year old girls should be scared. The God who made them is furious that they don’t love him. They should be terrified. They should be disgusted with themselves. They should know how absolutely helpless they are before God’s wrath. They should know that absolutely nothing they can ever do will ever please God.
But they should also know that Jesus loves them so much that he died for them. That he stood up and took the full force of God’s horrific punishment so that none might reach them. They should know that they don’t need to do anything to please God because Jesus has already done it all!
You’re right it’s plain wrong to tell kids they’re going to hell if they do something again. They’ll go to hell if they reject God’s rightful and loving rule over their lives. They’ll go to hell if they are proud and selfish and decide they will be rulers of their own lives.
I think there are a couple of issues here, and that they should be separated out.
1. The doctrines of heaven and hell.
2. What is appropriate to tell young children.
Taking (2) first:
I told my kids when they were young, to believe in God and Jesus. I didn’t present them with an option of not believing, so I didn’t feel it necessary to explain about hell at that stage. As Tia said, young kids just absorb, until they reach a certain maturity when they question.
I find Dannii’s language too strong to use with a young child. However, as a description of human sinfulness, it is basically accurate.
‘There is no-one righteous, not even one;
there is no-one who understands, no-one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no-one who does good, not even one.’
Romans 3:10-12
Children do wrong things, and they know it. They ought to be made aware that wrongdoing is sin against God. At the same time they ought to be told God loves them and Jesus died for them, providing forgiveness. Certainly they should not be threatened with hell as a disciplinary measure. That is abusive, and untrue. Untrue because the real issue, for children and for adults, is not this or that piece of misbehaviour, but whether they reject or accept Jesus.
(1)Heaven and Hell. I think I will address this part in another post.
It’s unfortunate the original article has disappeared. The link Kevin supplied is a different verstion of the same story. From memory, the girl who made the complaint was an older girl - about 8? older?, not a 5-year old. The older girl overheard the conversation between the 5-year old and another girl about Jesus and heaven, and interrupted with the question - what about people who don’t believe in Jesus? When the 5-year old told the older girl they go to hell, the older girl was upset by this answer, and complained to the teacher. The 5-year old did not appear to be personally scared by hell, but had faith in Jesus, was confident of going to heaven, and wanted to share this hope with others. I took the basic facts presented at face value, and I thought they seemed credible.
I find Danniis language criminal myself.
Sounded like Ayres to me! .....Scaring children into submission. No choices, just do what I say!!!!!
I can’t believe that you guys treat children like that…....I was treated like that and best you bash them rather than scare them like this as they will grow up broken in my opinion…....religious beliefs aside they will be damaged goods.
.......Tis where our criminals come from guys .....no respect for others left after an abusive childhood.
and Tia, check your PMs .....I left a note in there a week ago ;) ........I’m told I have an IQ of 150+ .....I did lots of vocational guidance tests in the 60s and I had to go back again and again to do their silly puzzles in the Social Security building in Spring St.
I think IQ is really a measure of sensitivity ...not intelligence. I can barely get through my day so it’s not about smarts that’s for sure. Learnings easy I know and but you tend to be able to see where someones going before they get there .....I’d like to talk to you Tai about the problems that come with it however. .And there is lots.
And Ros, I hear you that you took the story for what it was ....I tend to read any story then do a search on the net ....the last browser I will ever use is ‘google’ as it is just Mr Mainstreams opinion (I know I quote google here but it appears it’s this forum favoured source)
I had a read about on a few sources and found a conversation with the aforementioned school princple and it appears a beat up start to finish (I’m on a dial up node and can’t search at the moment ...halfway to melb parked on the freeway) Have a look around Ros .....and get off that ‘google’ habit ;) ...you can get therapy for it I’ve heard :)
I also hear you that you spread your faith with love rather than threats.
I find Danniis language criminal myself.
Sounded like Ayres to me! .....Scaring children into submission. No choices, just do what I say!!!!!
I can’t believe that you guys treat children like that.......I was treated like that and best you bash them rather than scare them like this as they will grow up broken in my opinion…....religious beliefs aside they will be damaged goods.
Dannii : 5 year old girls should be scared. The God who made them is furious that they don’t love him. They should be terrified. They should be disgusted with themselves. They should know how absolutely helpless they are before God’s wrath. They should know that absolutely nothing they can ever do will ever please God.
Hi Michael,
Please don’t think that Dannii’s terrorising approach is widespread. It’s HIS - not mine . I can see where he is coming from theologically - but he doesn’t appear to know anything about dealing with children - especially delicate and impressionable youngsters. He doesn’t sound like he’s had any experience of being a parent who would know better about how young kids operate and think. Universally, little kids are trusting and just wanting to be loved. It’s adults who betray that trust and love by making them scared and insecure who have the problem and screw kids up for life. My three children are now in their 20’s so I’ve experienced parenthood first-hand - and I also spent 10 years working with troubled teenagers whose contact with adults had stuffed them up. The common thread was a sense of feeling unloved - and untrusting of adults.To counter this, there are plenty of good resource books and trained children’s workers around who know how to effectively communicate the love of God to young people - with age appropriate loving approaches. And the way you speak to a 5 year old is vastly different to when they are 8, 10 or 15 etc.
To use intemperate language to scare a 5 year old is just not on - unless you are a member of a cult or the Taliban ! In the gospels, Jesus had plenty to say about how to lovingly treat children - it’s good advice worth following.
Yes, I agree, faith can only be spread through love.
(I find it hard to believe that Dannii would actually say to a young child the things he wrote.)
But I don’t see any value in posing very young children with a choice of faith. They’re not ready for it, and it’s confusing.
You tell them there is a God, who made us and loves us. If you believe that’s the truth (as I do), that’s what you should say.
Michael, why is that scaring them?
I’d be interested to know why the story might be a beat-up. Of course the school principal would talk it down. But my main concern was how much of an over-reaction it all was. The principal shouldn’t have even needed to be involved.
You tell them there is a God, who made us and loves us. If you believe that’s the truth (as I do), that’s what you should say. Michael, why is that scaring them?
Exactly, I don’t see how that’s terrorising or abusing them. But there comes some point later in life where the full doctrine has to come out - at a later age when such things should be expressed with sensitivity (though hell and punishment are certainly difficult to convey in a sensitive way). My opinion is that this other dimension should start to balance out christian doctrine from the start of adulthood, but that may be just me.
Meanwhile there’s this other stuff that’s giving Christians in UK a bad name - if the UK MPs profess to be Christian on one hand and do unchristian things:
Honesty IS the Best Policy!
Kings detest wrongdoing, for a throne is established through righteousness. Kings take pleasure in honest lips, they value a man who speaks the truth.
Proverbs 16:12-13, NIV
This past week in the United Kingdom, we have witnessed the most extraordinary scenes in our Houses of Parliament. Members of Parliament (MPs) have been rushing to pay back money to the Government that they should never have taken!
All MPs are rightfully entitled to claim for necessary expenses in doing their job, but for years there has been a culture of dishonesty in the seat of government. Many MPs, of all political parties, have been caught red-handed claiming money by way of expenses which had nothing whatsoever to do with the job they were doing. And the nation is outraged.
These people, who are responsible for putting laws into place which other people have to obey, have been systematically and dishonestly milking the system for their own benefit. But now they’ve been exposed (by a national newspaper), they are all desperately trying to pay the money back, thinking that if they pay it back they can get away with keeping their reputation. Never before have I seen such public hypocrisy.
I fear for our nation when such unrighteousness is at its core. As our scripture for today says, thrones (governments) are established through righteousness. The converse of this is that governments are destroyed by unrighteousness.
But before we all get on our very high horses and come down with a heavy hand of judgement upon these men and women, who have certainly acted without integrity (not all MPs are implicated, many have acted with total honesty and not claimed moneys falsely), let us examine our own hearts.
Is it not possible that there could be many things in our own lives (things we think about, say or do) that are ungodly? And I wonder how we would be behaving now if a ‘Kingdom Newspaper’ were to publicly expose these things for everyone else to know about? My guess is that we might be moving very quickly to try and put things right!
One day, at the end of time, everything will be exposed. So perhaps we should all learn from this sad episode in our parliamentary history and seek to put things right in our own lives now, and not wait for the public exposure of eternity. In that way our lives, our families, our churches, our cities and even our nations can be established in righteousness - and be strong.
Prayer: Lord, we are sorry for the deceptions operating in both our nations and our private lives. I ask that you will forgive me for the hidden things in my life, and help me to put things right now, simply because you tell us in your Word what is right and what is wrong, and not because we have been forced to act because someone else exposes the reality. In Jesus’ Name, Amen.
Today’s Writer : Peter Horrobin
Peter Horrobin is the Founder and International Director of Ellel Ministries. His cutting edge teaching and compassion for the hurting have been at the heart of Ellel’s ministry throughout its 23 years of development. He is the author of numerous books, most notably Healing Through Deliverance and Living the Life. At present he is busy writing material for Ellel 365, the new online training School which will be launched on July 1st. To find out more go to http://www.em365.org.
I’m not aware of whether any of the dishonest MP’s in question are considered Christians? That seems like a can of worms.
Going back to the article Kevin referred to about equal opportunity -
Religious groups are to be forced to accept homosexual youth workers, secretaries and other staff, even if their faith holds same-sex relationships to be sinful.
Christian organisations fear that the tightened legislation, which is due to come into force next year, will undermine the integrity of churches and dilute their moral message.
Religious leaders had hoped to lobby for exemptions to the Equality Bill but Maria Eagle, the deputy equalities minister, has now indicated that it will cover almost all church employees. The circumstances in which religious institutions can practice anything less than full equality are few and far between,” she told delegates at the Faith, Homophobia, Transphobia, & Human Rights conference in London.
“While the state would not intervene in narrowly ritual or doctrinal matters within faith groups, these communities cannot claim that everything they run is outside the scope of anti-discrimination law.
“Members of faith groups have a role in making the argument in their own communities for greater LGBT acceptance, but in the meantime the state has a duty to protect people from unfair treatment.”
Under existing equalities legislation, any roles deemed to be necessary “for the purposes of an organised religion” are excluded from gay rights protection.
But the Equality Bill, which is currently passing through parliament, for the first time defines this as applying only to those who lead the liturgy or spend the majority of the time teaching doctrine - essentially just ministers, bishops and their equivalents in other faiths.
A Government Equalities Office spokesman said: “The Equality Bill will not force a church to accept someone as a priest regardless of their sexual orientation or gender.
“Churches, synagogues, mosques and others will continue to have the freedom to choose who they employ in jobs which promote their religion. But where they provide services to the public they will have to treat everyone fairly.”
These legislators seem to have a very confused view of what religious institutions are or should be doing. Why do they think that only ministers etc are teaching doctrine? What do they think youth leaders are employed for? Playing games? Well if that’s what they are doing, the churches should re-think their ideas, and re-focus on core business. That could be a blessing in disguise. (God can work good from evil situations.)
But the statement that takes the cake is this one:
“Members of faith groups have a role in making the argument in their own communities for greater LGBT acceptance”
.........You tell them there is a God, who made us and loves us. If you believe that’s the truth (as I do), that’s what you should say.
Michael, why is that scaring them?
Hi Ros,
I think that Michael was referring to the words that Dannii commenced with :
5 year old girls should be scared. The God who made them is furious that they don’t love him. They should be terrified. They should be disgusted with themselves. They should know how absolutely helpless they are before God’s wrath.
I find that approach definitely scary - and lacking in love. We ARE talking about 5 year olds aren’t we ? Anyone who thinks that that approach to communicating the ‘gospel’ to a 5 year old is okay, should be called up by the church leadership and taken to task. I would not allow any child of mine to be subjected to such ‘spiritual bullying’. Who would ?
Getting back to the original ‘lost’ article, Ros, I have been like a dog with a bone that won’t let go - and success has come our way. ( Google is my friend - but I had to dig around from various angles to hit pay-dirt. ) Here is what I found :
Mother facing sack for praying
Friday, February 13, 2009
A PRIMARY school receptionist is facing the sack for seeking church support after her five-year-old daughter was reduced to tears when she was told off for talking about God in class.
Jennie Cain’s daughter Jasmine was scolded by a teacher for discussing Heaven and Hell with a friend, and reportedly came home in a flood of tears.
Mrs Cain, who works at the school, Landscore Primary School in Crediton, now faces disciplinary action after sending a private e-mail to close Christian friends asking them to offer prayers for her daughter and the school.
However, a copy of the e-mail ended up in the hands of the headteacher Gary Read.
Mrs Cain, 38, is now being investigated by governors at Landscore Primary School in Crediton, and could face dismissal. But she still does not know how the headteacher got hold of a copy of the e-mail.
The case has sparked outrage among the Christian community, which fears its members are facing a wave of discrimination in society. Stephen Green, national director of campaign group Christian Voice, said: “It’s discrimination. It seems like open season on Christians. Christians are going to have to wake up to the fact we are in a spiritual war. It’s disgraceful behaviour to treat a five-year-old girl like this. These people will stop at nothing. My initial reaction was, ‘Oh no, not another one’.”
The family says the row started on January 22, when Jasmine told a five-year-old friend: “I believe in God and Jesus and I’m going to Heaven.”
A seven-year-old pupil then asked how a person gets into Hell, to which Jasmine is reported to have said: “By not believing in Jesus”.
When her mother came to pick her up later in the day, Jasmine immediately burst into tears, saying she had been told off by her teacher for talking about God and Heaven and had been warned not to talk about Jesus again. It led to an allegation that a child had been “bullied” over religion.
But the school has pointed out that only the children involved were present during the discussion. Staff say that the child in question was left “frightened and upset” by the exchange. Headteacher Mr Read said Jasmine was told she could talk about Jesus, but could not warn non-believers that they would end up in Hell.
However, Simon Calvert, of the Christian Institute, which is supporting Mrs Cain, said Jasmine did not raise the subject of Hell herself. He said: “If the school is to be believed, then when Jasmine was asked that question she should have either refused to answer it or denied what Christians have believed for 2,000 years. But she didn’t. She just answered the question. The school now has to deal with the problem of whether it is really going to censor children over their Christian beliefs.”.........
(2)
School receptionist faces sack over prayer request :
School receptionist faces sack after five-year-old daughter is told off for talking about God
By SAM GREENHILL
13th February 2009
** This article attracted 164 comments
Finally, the other intriguing thing is how that email ended up in the Principal’s office - seeing as the mother only “sent a private email to ten close Christian friends asking them to offer prayers for the families and the school.” Obviously, someone breached the bonds of friendship - and either sent it to the Principal - or forwarded it to someone else - who then sent it on to the school. That’s a sad reflection on trust within a church fellowship isn’t it ?
Cheers, Kevin ( “adjusting his deerstalker sleuth hat” )
That link in (3) above concludes with the following. It includes the idea that Mrs Cain “thinks Mr Read was passed the email by a governor, who is married to one of the churchgoers she sent it to” - so that appears to solve that mystery.
.................. Mrs Cain said: ‘He started talking about my daughter and how he wasn’t happy about her making statements about her faith. At that point I froze. I felt very small and trapped as I was a junior member of staff.’
That weekend Mrs Cain emailed a prayer request from her personal computer at home to trusted friends from her church. She said: ‘I asked them to please pray for us, please pray for Jasmine, please pray for the school and pray for the church.’
A few days later she was called back into Mr Read’s office. She said: ‘He had in his hand a copy of my private, personal email and it was highlighted all the way through. He said he was going to investigate me for professional misconduct because I had been making allegations about the school and staff to members of the public.’
Mrs Cain, who has not been suspended, added: ‘It seems that there is something about the Christian faith that has triggered this very strong, very heavy-handed whack.’ She thinks Mr Read was passed the email by a governor, who is married to one of the churchgoers she sent it to.
Among a groundswell of support for Mrs Cain yesterday was NHS nurse Caroline Petrie, who herself was nearly sacked recently by North Somerset Primary Care Trust for offering to say a prayer for an elderly patient.
Mrs Petrie said: ‘This mum must be feeling so alone, because that’s how I felt. They make you feel guilty for your beliefs. If she is being threatened with the sack just for sending an email asking people to pray, it is terrible.
‘The whole world will be on her side. Please send her my love and tell her I will pray for her.’
Former Tory minister Ann Widdecombe said: ‘There is now daily evidence of Christianophobia in this country and it is high time that it was tackled. It is wicked to scold a small child for talking about Jesus. Even if the child was talking about going to Hell, that is what Christians believe.’
Simon Calvert, of the Christian Institute, which is supporting Mrs Cain, said Jasmine was talking to a five-year-old friend and said: ‘I believe in God and Jesus and I’m going to Heaven’.
A seven-year-old then joined in the conversation, saying: ‘How do you go to Hell then?’ Jasmine replied: ‘By not believing in Jesus.’
Mr Calvert said this was the little girl’s recollection of the conversation.
But the school disputed this version of events. Mr Read told the Mail: ‘We are very happy for all children, at any time, to talk about religion.
‘But the information I got, and stick to, is the upshot of the conversation was the other child was told that if you don’t believe in God, you go to Hell. It upset and frightened the other child.’
Mr Read said Mrs Cain was being investigated over the allegations in her email, adding that he was unable to disclose its contents.
Andrea Williams, of the Christian Legal Centre, said: ‘Jennie Cain is the face of what happens when so-called equality and diversity laws run amok.’
In the Commons, MP Stewart Jackson called for a debate on ‘systematic and institutional discrimination towards Christians’.
Did you check out that Youtube / BBC video clip ? It’s fascinating how the Principal says that it would be okay if the child had said “I believe that ...” rather than state something as a fact. I think it’s a moot point he’s trying to adopt.
Yes fascinating.
Is this how people handle ‘truth’ in an age of relativism?
In which case is ‘belief’ anything more than something you’ve made up in your head? ie: belief becomes equated, not with truth, but ultimately with falsehood?
And why are people who are so relativistic so bothered by hell? Is it because - if faith is just something you make up in your personal head, you have no basis for applying it to others?
Quote from the Youtube (the principal): ‘What we don’t say is ‘This is the truth’ because I think that is unfair to young children, and it doesn’t help them in the long run when they make their own mind up as adults’. Hmm.
From the start of Arthurs post…...
quote ‘You tell them there is a God, who made us and loves us. If you believe that’s the truth (as I do), that’s what you should say. Michael, why is that scaring them?
Exactly, I don’t see how that’s terrorising or abusing them ................
I say that telling a five year old that they will go to hell! in wrong ....and is why I say ‘scaring them’.
That is the original point ......always seem to go off on some tangent ....the child told the other child ‘She would go to hell if she did that again’ .....again my point is that a child will be damaged if they are threatened at this age ......’ is obvious to me.
Michael,
Thanks for your thoughts. Sincerely. I see this is a touchy subject for you.
say that telling a five year old that they will go to hell! in wrong ....and is why I say ‘scaring them’.
That is the original point ......always seem to go off on some tangent ....the child told the other child ‘She would go to hell if she did that again’ .....again my point is that a child will be damaged if they are threatened at this age ......’ is obvious to me.
Firstly, this is not quite accurate. There was no suggestion that anyone would going to hell for doing anything again. And bear in mind we’re talking about a conversation between 2 5 year-olds and a 7 year-old! In fact, it was the 7-year old who brought up the subject.
A seven-year-old pupil then asked how a person gets into Hell, to which Jasmine is reported to have said: “By not believing in Jesus”.
So who told her about hell in the first place? Someone else, obviously, but the 5-year old gets blamed.
Secondly, no one is advocating responsible adults scaring little children! If you read over my and Kevin’s and Arthur’s posts, we are certainly not advocating talking about hell to young children.
I am not a parent, and honestly, I will not know the best way to talk about these very important and serious issues with my children until (if) I have them.
However, what I think is most important to teach them is the truth. Tell your kids nothing you will contradict when they are 10 or 15 or 50. They need to be taught in a way appropriate for young children, but they still need to be taught the truth. And so if they grow up to love God, when they are adults they should be able to remember back and say everything you taught them as a child was the truth. Maybe talk about hell, maybe don’t. To some extent this will depend on the child, and the parents.
Just don’t leave out sin when telling them about God’s love. Don’t leave out wrath when telling them about Jesus. If you won’t bring up hell then maybe don’t discuss heaven either. But I hope you’ll discipline your children, and I think that would probably present opportunities to discuss God’s punishments and disciplines.
Just teach the truth. And the truth is that even five year olds make God furious when they sin, and if anyone rejects God’s rule of their lives he will punish them in hell forever.
When my youngest sister was five years old she went through a period of not sleeping for days at a time I came home late one night to find her absolutely distraught.After calming her down she told me she was unhappy because she heard on the radio that australia was dissappearing into the sea and she did not want her family to drown .After some research I found there was a proffessor visiting austalia who had said Australias coast line was shrinking by 2.5 cm per year.My sister who is now 45yo can still remember the terror she felt. So why dont we let kids be kids be honest with them and express our opinions to them with respect to their age. they only get to be kids once,Heaven and Hell—————they will have eternity to ponder that.
Cheers Ian lawther
I think we have enough to wonder about here on earth ........my grandson thinks so ......always busy ‘wondering about things.’ Why would I want to bother his pristine mind with all this clutter.
( I have four grandkids Ros .....15 yr old grandaughter, 13, 3 and 20mths grandsons of my son and two daughters)
I have to say, from a research-infused perspective, that if this small boy pictured is already.. ..
wondering about things
.. ..then it’s only a matter of time before he starts asking the huge cosmic questions.
Be ready to engage with it..
TZ.
‘from a research-infused perspective’ I’d say that if the hose comes on it may not only be of instructional value to the three yr old, but also see some long term emotional behavioural triggers implanted about looking in sprinklers.
Is that what you meant TZ heheheheeee .......they certainly are putty at that age ;)
Michael,
It’s a lovely picture. And it appears to portray something of the essence of the boy without needing a full-on of the features. Beautifully taken too.
Children are a gift from God. I don’t have any grandchildren (not ready for that yet), but I think they must be even more so.
Ian,
Heaven and Hell—————they will have eternity to ponder that.
An eternity pondering Hell is exactly what we want to avoid, and persuade others if possible.
But surely it’s better to have eternity pondering heaven.
And sadly, not everyone makes it out of childhood.
Dannii,
However, what I think is most important to teach them is the truth. Tell your kids nothing you will contradict when they are 10 or 15 or 50
Absolutely. It’s quite a challenge really. I’m coming from the perspective that the gospel is not about our choice. For two reasons: 1 - it is God who chooses. 2 - the gospel is a command, not an option. Repent and believe. This is why is said I wouldn’t present very young kids (say 2-5ish) with a choice of not believing - even indirectly - by talking about the consequences of unbelief. Kids of this age basically believe what they’re told. Some of them even believe in a strange man in a red suit and a beard who makes a nocturnal visit once a year bearing gifts.
[null]Catholics File Suits on Contraceptive CoverageNew York Times[{}]At least 11 other Catholic and evangelical organizations had already filed lawsuits challenging the birth control mandate, but those cases are still pending. The White House declined to comment on Monday, instead providing President Obama's comments ...
[null]Catholic Groups File Suits on Contraceptive CoverageNew York Times[{}]At least 11 other Catholic and evangelical organizations had already filed lawsuits challenging the birth control mandate, but those cases are still pending. The White House declined to comment on Monday, instead providing President Obama's comments ...
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