I understand everyone’s focused on the fires at the moment, and fair enough.
I thought it would be worth mentioning though that Israel goes to the polls in a matter of hours, and the main choices are the “centrist” coalition who recently bombed the hell out of Gaza (with Tzipi Livni now appealing to the left); Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud party on the right who are pro settlements, think the Gaza war finished too soon and have about zero interest in a two state solution; and Avigdor Lieberman, a far-right loony who apparently wants to kick 1.5 million Arab Israelis out of Israel, and could pick up enough seats to play a significant role in a future coalition, and be somewhat of a king maker.
Mind you, I don’t think any of the Israeli parties have quite the same platform as the runaway winners in Gaza, Hamas.
“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”
And for the only other country in the middle east that even bothers to hold elections (of a sort), the Iranian presidential election to be held on 12 June 2009 will offer a choice of principal candidates differing in their policies towards Israel only as to the methods and timeframe in which Israel should be eradicated.
With those kind of folks in the neighbourhood, I’m not sure I’d expect the Israeli electorate to be toying with negotiation, surrender, more incoming rockets, or any of the other competing options.
[ Edited: 10 February 2009 08:10 PM by Alan Dungey]
; and Avigdor Lieberman, a far-right loony who apparently wants to kick 1.5 million Arab Israelis out of Israel, and could pick up enough seats to play a significant role in a future coalition, and be somewhat of a king maker.
I heard only today that Lieberman is a “former bouncer” who ‘looks the part’. Interesting times ahead indeed ;)
Starting to follow the logic now…..Iran has to be kept in the gun sights or Israel won’t be able to whinge for help from the US money printers where half the population believe the human species is less than 10,000 years old and the end times are a comin’! ........bothers me!!!!
I’m afraid I have a cynical view of all these people running around killing each other in THEIR gods name.
.....and yet aren’t they all the same god ....or similiar.
Damn shame Abraham wasn’t born deaf…..none of this shit would be happening.
I’ll go away as I’m off thread.
cheers ;)
ps….my nephew (wifes sisters son) did part of a cultural thesis while at kings college in edin and spent a lot of time in Iran and Iraq before the last war and found them to be wonderful places with especially friendly and warm people.
Just people i think :(
[ Edited: 12 February 2009 07:50 AM by michael scull]
I found this a good insight into the recent past in that area .......and plenty of wonderful old pics of buildings and life in this area prior to 48. Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem
I don’t doubt some of you guys would find the pics interesting….saw an early pic of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre among others here
[ Edited: 12 February 2009 06:46 PM by michael scull]
Reading everything I can about the election and everyone has something to say about this from Lebanon to britain.
How the hell did a country of 6 million become such a pain in the arse. They hold enough news space that you would think they make up half the free world (whatever that means) by their arrogance.
I’m thinking their money printing press in the States has run a bearing and things may dry up a little in the future.
I see israel as the little fat spoilt kid in the school yard who has prefects for friends. ......noisiest little prick when things go wrong to .....everyone around him hates him while the rest of the world says he has a right to exsist.
problem is this spoilt brat has an illegal weapon in his pocket and no one is asking about that.
(although I heard the question put to Obama yesterday about the nuclear weapons in the Middle east .....she got no reply but for Foxes OReilly calling her a witch for what he called a stupid question)
(need to qualify I only watch Fox for it’s amusement value….it’s my comedy channel when the other ones dull…..Fox is never dull ...just dumb hehheheeee)
Personally think it’s relavent and needs to be on the table ........especially with nuclear disarmament talks about to go on the table again.
israel need to be involved if they want to be seen to be the solutyion and not as they are now the actual problem.
[Snip - Luke]
here’s a more important story than these 6million clowns How Iran-U.S. talks could shake Mideast
interests me ..I see that the accusations of “Stop trying to make weapons” when Iran says it isn’t ....to ” ....if Iran were to give up any move to build nuclear weapons.” (quoted from the article) is a whole new approach.
[ Edited: 13 February 2009 05:59 PM by Luke Stevens]
I am neither pro-, not anti-, Israel - even though my last job was at a Jewish school, bless it.
I am just a little concerned at the rapidity with which some are assuming that all the Jews who look to the state of Israel as a solution to all their problems should be tarred with the same extreme political brush.
If a significant group of Jewish people put all their hopes into life in this world under God as they know Him - and therefore fight for the right to live where they still believe He gave them inheritance.. ..
.. ..how different really is that to ordinary non-Jewish people like me putting their hopes in life in this world, in money, in careers, in special close lifelong relationships, in leisure/sport/recreational activities?
Whatever is most important to you, you will fight to get it, keep it, retain it.
Whether that be a land currently occupied by people you wish weren’t in it - or the inner-city apartment you rent out to others at a very good price - or a high-paying and secure job - or a successful marriage with successful children in successful schools.. .. ..it’s all the same to God if you trust in something of this world.
But it’s all quite useless if you can’t take it with you when you die, like my grandma’s brother who has just gone to be with the Lord (blessed is he!). Or if you lose it in one of the worst firestorms ever to hit the region in 70 years, like the people of Kinglake/Marysville VIC. Or if she/he leaves/divorces you for a younger model, etc.
We can’t trust in or rely on the things of this world. The people of Israel, who want the state of Israel to be theirs and theirs alone - whether Jews or Arabs - they can’t trust in or rely on having Israel all to themselves forever and ever world without end.
They are just like us, in that they, like us, stand to lose everything if they do not put their hope in the eternal God and His Son Jesus.
The results of the elections and the immediate future of the state of Israel will not have eternal consequences. But what we make of Jesus Christ will. More than anything the peoples of Israel and those across the world who hope in it need to respond to Jesus. Preferably before too many of them get blown up in another suicide attack, or in a Hamas or anti-Hamas raid, or some other life-culling war-generated initiative.
Not a bad history here Palestinian History
Is one side but the best history of events leading up to this election that I can find .....and it ends in 06 anyway.
i’m not sure about ...... Whether that be a land currently occupied by people you wish weren’t in it - or the inner-city apartment you rent out to others at a very good price - or a high-paying and secure job - or a successful marriage with successful children in successful schools
and then . .. ..it’s all the same to God if you trust in something of this world.
I’d have to disagree if you are affecting others lives .....the quality of your life is associated with your community .....and if you community doesn’t follow you up then what is the point.
.....I’d like to extend that thinking to a greater circle than my own community but not if that outer circle rejects my thinking then you should attempt to see their way of thinking.
all really a waste of time….how do you deal with anyone who thinks they are the chosen ones anyway .....all correct in their own minds and immovable.
‘Amusing ourselves to death’ is correct unfortunately.
..how do you deal with anyone who thinks they are the chosen ones anyway .....all correct in their own minds and immovable.
If I’m a Christian (and I am), and if I believe that God is truly in control of the earth and every living/non-living thing in it (and I do), then I ought to leave my all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving and all-just Father to “deal with” those people.
And I should be praying for His mercy to be shown to them. Because having worked for 18 months in one Jewish community in Sydney’s east, I can see quite plainly that this one community rejects Jesus as God’s Son/God’s chosen king/fulfilment of God’s promises - thus will not see life unless they believe in Him (cf. JOHN 3:36).
Oh yes, Jesus had it spot on when he observed that they “diligently study the Scriptures”, thinking that by their Torah they possess eternal life. As their former infants music teacher, I could sing & play you at least 3 modern Jewish children’s choruses that reflect this belief. But without believing in the One whom God sent to them, they will be lost - no matter how “chosen” they think they are.
God’s judgment on them counts. He will deal with them justly. But His judgment on US and other non-Jews also counts, and He’ll deal with us just as justly.
The biggest question is - how will we deal with how God deals with us? Believe in the Lord Jesus - the One He sent? Or reject Him, like so many Jewish people across the world have so heart-breakingly done?
Anyone see the episode of Sth Park where they found that there was a near balance of opinion in the population of the USA about whether they should be at war in Iraq or not!
Because of this near balanced but differing view of the population. The kids surmised that the population was morally correct in having the war.
Same in Israel I suppose ....not everyone agrees they should annihalate the palestinians .....so it’s OK to do it.
Lets face it ....the election was about will we?....or won’t we?
I think I should maybe stay out of this as I see all war as evil…..repression of a people by another even more evil. And personally bloody sick of hearing about people killing people in gods name.
[ Edited: 13 February 2009 11:05 PM by michael scull]
That’s some rant Michael. Some would argue that Israel was just acting in self defence. What else should they do when their neighbours declare the total annihilation of Israel as “policy’ ?
I just lost my first post….have to learn to always copy before posting :(
Kevin, you should google that speech Ahmadinejad made as he was not only quoting an early speech of some earlier scholar/cleric but the translation is incorrect apparently…...please google it and see.
Bit like the one that didn’t stick. Which was the one where our own John Howard was outraged to hear that Jews were being forced in Iran to wear Stars of David emblazened on their chests.
was just spin if you recall, as is the other .....they hate ‘em ya know :)
Bit like OReilly running down Helen Thomas as a wicked witch…....the real story is behind ....have a listen to Helens second part of her question which about Israel .......listen because it is about israel and Obama answers her in a way that shows promise of a better way ahead.
Check it out Kevin Here
Everybody here is aware that Iran belongs and IS a payed up member of the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Arms Treaty
Israel is NOT!
My nephew was staying in Iran for a few mths studying the culture and country for his uni thesis….he stayed with a christian family that he actually found to be a little bit too christian for his liking but other than that all the people where open and friendly and keen to get modernised. He said they admired every little western gadget he had and were really keen about western junk which didn’t impress him in a culture he thought was above that. He was wrong heheheeee.
We talked lots about Iran and Iraq where he’d been, as although he lives in edinburgh, he came and lay on my couch all summer and watched the cricket the lazy scotsman he is!! But he loved all the people in both these countrys and found them warm and friendly.
So i don’t understand as they seem quite happy with christians in their midst .....but i must say the Israeli question never came up as far as Iran was concerned.
More so the americans and iraq where the people said they used to have the USA as friends against the Iranians and now nothing (this was the year before the second iraq war)
bloody hell kevin, lookk at the time hehheheeheeeee ....good night dood ;)
[ Edited: 14 February 2009 01:42 AM by michael scull]
I think some use that Old Testament strategy to further their own ends .....no doubt about that.
Listen to the interviews with the israeli soldiers who took and were holding the Lions Gate in recent battles ....they saw themselves as warriors for God.
It’s played out wherever you look…....both sides.
Shame is we are the good goy supplying the arms and ammunition…..and in some cases delivering them.
[ Edited: 16 February 2009 03:41 PM by michael scull]
I find everyone has an opinion about this but I also think most haven’t a clue about the history.
Every year Australia votes against the Vote on Peaceful Settlement of Palestine Question We are just as much to blame for this as anyone ...but the average aussie isn’t aware how we stand with only a very few in this palestinian/israel fiasco.
We are right there declaring our allegance ......trouble is no one told us.
164 countries in Favour - 7 countries Against
We are with Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau as well as the United States.
USA gives 3 billion dollars a year to the 6 million people of Israel and they have yet to fulfill their first obligation of entering the UN.
To give the Palestinians a homeland. Israel Map ever changing
Strangulation it’s called!
url’ed the map as I’m guessing everyone get’s the message ;)
[ Edited: 22 February 2009 07:24 PM by michael scull]
I’m confused about why God is on the Israeli side?
and also why we should pray for them.
Is it written somewhere or something .......excuse me but I’m ignorant of ancient history in all this.
Should we be also helping the australian aborigine to oust whitey…...... as they have historical rights to this land and can prove it back forty thousand years.
Makes the Israeli argument of ownership a bit thin.
Israel says it’s about saefety and nothing else ........are you guys here sayng something else? ........that it’s written in the bible or something because the Israelis deny this is the reason.
I’m trying to understand as it’s happening as I type…....but other will have to enlighten me as I sit here and feel everyones watching but to timid to speak ........what’s with that?? .......why did you join? ........or is it a forum of voyeurs?
I’m confused about why God is on the Israeli side?
and also why we should pray for them.
Is it written somewhere or something .......excuse me but I’m ignorant of ancient history in all this.
Should we be also helping the australian aborigine to oust whitey…...... as they have historical rights to this land and can prove it back forty thousand years.
Makes the Israeli argument of ownership a bit thin.
Israel says it’s about saefety and nothing else ........are you guys here sayng something else? ........that it’s written in the bible or something because the Israelis deny this is the reason.
I’m trying to understand as it’s happening as I type…....but other will have to enlighten me as I sit here and feel everyones watching but to timid to speak ........what’s with that?? .......why did you join? ........or is it a forum of voyeurs?
Michael I’m not sure what you want and it seems you don’t either.
We are to pray for all mankind even our enemies. It is not against God’s will for us to pray for the Jews. I’m not praying God do this or that but for His will. Since I’m not sure what that is I’ve simple asked for God’s Will to be done (that is what Jesus taught us to pray in the Lord’s prayer, “His will be done on Earth”).
MT 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Since you say you have ignorance in the history of modern day Israel why don’t you see if Moore College has some kind of course material or books which can enlighten you in this area?
I have been doing some courses about the Old testament that have helped me understand it better.
I don’t what else to tell you I don’t have the answers you seek.
I do have a pretty good understanding of the recent history from the about 1900 on .....but little of the 1500 hundred years before that.
Milica, I can imagine the history and Old Testament is interesting and also possibly explains some peoples opinions and reasoning behind these happenings in the middle east.
Just that I feel that us as Australians being basically a deciding vote in the UNs vote on the Peaceful Settlement of Palestine Question.
Why is it we are one of the very few that vote against this bill with Israel.
that is not standing in the middle I don’t think! .........and is the bit that worrys me.
I do have a pretty good understanding of the recent history from the about 1900 on .....but little of the 1500 hundred years before that.
Milica, I can imagine the history and Old Testament is interesting and also possibly explains some peoples opinions and reasoning behind these happenings in the middle east.
Just that I feel that us as Australians being basically a deciding vote in the UNs vote on the Peaceful Settlement of Palestine Question.
Why is it we are one of the very few that vote against this bill with Israel.
that is not standing in the middle I don’t think! .........and is the bit that worrys me.
So basically you lied for effect in your previous post. I’m disappointed in you.
I’m not interested in worldly politics. If they don’t line up with God’s will for this Earth too bad.
God hasn’t just left us to our own devices here on Earth. Far from it. We will all be accountable to Him one day.
As for Australia’s UN vote they already threw their lot in against Israel a while ago now.
AUSTRALIA has switched its position to vote against Israel on two resolutions at the United Nations, ending the Howard government’s unswerving alignment with the United States and raising concern from the Jewish community.
{rest of article found at the above link}
[ Edited: 23 February 2009 07:16 PM by Milica Cook]
Thanks Milica about the new vote and i honestly wasn’t aware we’d changed our position in this. (lets put it down to living in the sticks and getting myself sidetracked for six mths .....usually pride myself on being up on that stuff and fell down badly .....I see it came out 5 days before my review was due….mind was stewed at the time…....I will speak to myself stearnly later)
Maybe God did intervene and sent us Kev ;) ......not making light of that as I was shattered when I hadn’t seen any moves about changing our vote when Kev came in.
The same feeling of despair when Barack gave that first acceptance speech in the Jewish Centre.
But good things come to those who wait .........so I’m gunna wait and see what happens now with that news Milica.
I read your post earlier and came back to talk about the old and new history of all this .....but that last little edit of yours has me off to google the situation.
So basically you lied for effect in your previous post. I’m disappointed in you.
Not sure where I lied??......was it because I said this?
’.......excuse me but I’m ignorant of ancient history in all this.’
or
‘I do have a pretty good understanding of the recent history from the about 1900 on .....but little of the 1500 hundred years before that.’
I’m trying to figure this out as I don’t tell lies.
I think it’s people being confused about whats going in Israel that is allowing it to continue. I’m pleased to hear australia is not voting with the Israelis in this now. We shoudn’t have been voting with them at all.
Have a read of the history here .....just the headings of the resolutions will do! List of Israels UN Resolutions
I think we have an obligation to see that this setting up of Israel is fairly done.
This letting God look after it! idea bothers me greatly.
Does this mean that law and order isn’t part of this christian view and everybody should just do what God wanted them to.
Isn’t that how we got here??????? ......isn’t that what the 19 terrorists were doing on the 11/9/01 ??
I’m not a believer in god myself .....although I want to understand why I’m one of the few. I appreciate that I could be wrong but I also think it wrong to say you believe in God and then have personal doubts ...then maybe I’d consider myself a liar.
I’m with the group (maybe just a group of one) that says the other. I don’t believe in god but am open to being convinced the other .......I don’t just stand and say people are wrong .......but should I go with the majority (democractic method) .......should I go with my irish catholic culture and ‘go the Mick’ ........or should I just do what I do and make sure I tread lightly in this world and try not to hurt of injure anyone elses existance…......and a right and just God won’t turn me away.
But if I follow the latter then I should not allow this horror to continue in Israel ........see my logic.
I just can’t sit on my hands like some suggest and do nothing .....at least I can open peoples eyes to the manipulation of the UN by a certain few countrys neocom govts.
Personally it’s nice to see that that era is coming to an end.
If the Iraq war has done anything, it’s opened our eyes to what leangths govts will go to to get what they want. war with Japan was exactly the same my Dad used to say (and he died in ‘63 and had first hand knowledge of that in WW2 as a POW) .....he was the one who gave me the phrase ‘good goy’)
Dad would say “I’ll be the good goy today ....so you can grow up and be a good boy” .....never knew what he meant for many years, and still not exactly sure.
(don’t be thinking my attitude is from some hatred from childhood as my dad not only kept contact with Japanese families after the war but also aligned his group home building teams with similiar groups in Japan…..and the Goy comment came out of many of his clients wanting automatic / timer operated /hands free / lights, heating, etc for those among us that can’t do it on the sabbath.
I recall my dad making electric retractable curtains on timers in the 60’s. He saw it as unholy and lazy…...and their ultimate day off.
But he always said they were his best clients .......when you are making and selling mainly kitchen appliances .........you couldn’t ask for a better customer than one who wants two of everything :)
I digress hehehheeeeee
Maybe I just have a problem with any group that think and hold themselves above others.
edit (just a message to the blokes out there)
Tzipi Livni takes my eye though Luke. Not sure what causes that maybe that stern image interests me .....over from gettin belted by the Nuns when I was little maybe hehehheeee
And that accent tops it off for me also.
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