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This is a strange phenomenon I’ve seen over the last couple of years - young twenty-somethings who’ve grown up in or around a true blue, straight-down-the-line Sydney Anglican church, who then go on short term mission trips to Verypooristan, and come back with all these crazy, very charismatic stories that they share unchallenged, as though it’s some kind of norm!

Now being the cynical old crock that I am, I don’t believe magical things happen in other parts of the world just because they are heart-breakingly poor. Instead I suspect that a lot of the Christians living over there (who are, lets be clear, giving up their lives to help the poor) are of a strong charismatic persuasion, and therefore frame the experiences of these impressionable twenty-somethings for them.

This raises several questions for me:
- How do these guys grow up in a very ‘Syd Ang’ church, and lack the skills to think critically about their experiences?
- Why are they upheld as having had this super spiritual experience, when doctrinally it’s something that is frowned upon quite strongly in the diocese?
- Should we prepare people more before they go to prepare (inoculate?) them against the charro stuff they’ll experience?

I also think it’s weird that people go away, are confronted by the suffering and grinding poverty these people endure day in, day out, and then come to the conclusion that, no matter, God is still looking after them! That may be the case, but the rationalization that takes place seems like a severe case of magical thinking to me. God may be looking after them, but we sure aren’t, which is rather the problem I would have though.

It all seems very strange to me, I find it totally disconcerting.

Hi Luke.

Perhaps it would help more if you described some of these experiences. And while not every experience is of God, do / did those experiences glorify or denigrate God?

Certainly there is a measure of greed in all of us and we are able to contribute towards the area of poverty in a greater measure. Its a pity that you don’t hear of any / many reformed evangelicals doing great works in the poorer countries or tackling huge global issues such as Aids,  like you hear Hillsong, Saddleback church and others getting stuck into.

Hi Craig,

I didn’t want to be too specific, but in different cases it involved (very) miraculous healing, God speaking directly to the person, and God intervening in very specific ways.

Now I understand there are a lot of people, including yourself, who think this is par for the course, which is fine. My view is quite different obviously, but what I found gob-smackingly strange was that these people who had been (solo) on these short term missions apparently had no problem with what they perceived had happened or they had experienced. It didn’t appear to strike them as profoundly different from what has been taught at their church (which it was), and moreover in the pews there seems to be the sense of awe about their experience, and validation from the church leaders who would be interviewing them.

In charismatic churches, that’s what you would expect, I guess. By this is dyed-in-the-wool Sydney Anglicanism - not exactly a bastion of charismatic experience!

It makes me wonder how much critical thinking these young guys are (or aren’t) doing themselves, and what’s going on in the leader’s minds - do they just let it through to the keeper? Do they think that was their experience so leave it be? Who knows, maybe I should ask :)

Hi Luke.

In my 10 years of Anglicanism, it seemed to me that there is often a dichotomy between what the leadership teach along any so called official line and what is actually believed by the pew sitters. There are many young people who attend Anglican churches who are happy to attend Pentecostal churches / conferences and there are many Anglican ministers in Sydney who are also open to doing so also.

Again I think the question needs to be asked, does their experience glorify God, and if the answer is a resounding yes…then by all means glorify God.

I think Luke’s right to question it - we are told to test and question the spirits to see if they are from God, for many false prophets have gone into the world (1 John 1:4).  I would not accept what someone said if they told me God had spoken to them unless I’d had the opportunity to question what they say they were told and then assess whether it was in accordance with the bible (which is after all the final and complete revelation of God, being the Word who became incarnate).  If it didn’t match the bible, I’d not hesitate to say it wasn’t God who spoke to them, irrespective of how “good” the message was or how “Godly” the circumstances appeared.

Let this thread be ever remembered as the first ‘Charismatic thread’ :)
- How do these guys grow up in a very ‘Syd Ang’ church, and lack the skills to think critically about their experiences?
Because we don’t talk about it.
- Why are they upheld as having had this super spiritual experience, when doctrinally it’s something that is frowned upon quite strongly in the diocese? Because when we do talk about it we try and sweep it under the carpet.
- Should we prepare people more before they go to prepare (inoculate?) them against the charro stuff they’ll experience? Yes

Hmmm, where to start?

I think one of the best ways to “test the spirits” might be the following.

1. Kid goes on overseas mission and comes back claiming to speak in tongues.

2. Kid decides to test his tongues according to 1 John 1:4

3. Kid records himself speaking in tongues for 10 minutes.

4. Kid emails tongues to 20 different official charismatic “interpreters” of tongues, asking for it to be interpreted.

5. 20 different messages come back.

6. False “spirit” or “practice” or “religious ecstasy” detected, kid stops being annoying with his tongues thing.

Craig. Point of order. Rick Warren, I understand, claims to be Reformed in his theology.

Also, John Piper is Reformed and his church is highly involved in mercy ministry to the poor.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’ Anglicare one of Australia’s biggest NGO charities? This whole “evangelicals don’t do much for the poor” thing bugs me. Maybe if we put on a uniform like the Salvo’s when we did our “thang” we’d be more visible, but then again, maybe that kind of “corporate branding” is not really what Jesus had in mind. Left hand not letting the right hand know, and all that. ;-)

Also, I’d have to say that heaps of Anglicans I know have at least one Compassion sponsor child. It’s just we don’t necessarily wear a smart jacket and play a trumpet to announce it.

I haven’t had any direct experience of this myself, but a highly intelligent friend of mine at uni (in the early 90s) went through something very similar, albeit it that he was attending a baptist church in Sydney rather than an Anglican one.

My take on it is that there is not necessarily any inconsistency here.  It is clear both from the gospels and from Acts that initial proclamations of the gospel in new places were often accompanied by miraculous events, but it is also clear from 1 Corinthians etc that the established body of believers in a place is meant to behave in a manner that is intelligible both to its members and to outsiders.

Also, when you think about it, the very existence of a church in any particular place is itself a miraculous work of God.

Thus, my conclusion is that God’s general intention is that, over time, the miracle and intelligible witness of the Church in a particular place will replace the witness of initial, more “obvious” miracles in that place.

Of course, there will also be a question of testing the miracles that occur in a particular place (ie are they accompanied by proclamation of the message that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (see 1 John), but I don’t think it is right to simply assume that they are all necessarily counterfeit.

Hi David.

I understand that Rick Warren is reformed or semi reformed in his theology. But he certainly has copped a bucketing by Sydney Anglicans and many other reformed types around the place.

Its funny how some will disown him in some areas and then want to claim him as their own in others?

David, you are right about Anglicare, which though is not really considered as being part of the church by many in the church…you only have to attend a few synod meetings to understand their struggles in this area.

Sheldon says

Let this thread be ever remembered as the first ‘Charismatic thread’ :)
- How do these guys grow up in a very ‘Syd Ang’ church, and lack the skills to think critically about their experiences?
Because we don’t talk about it.
- Why are they upheld as having had this super spiritual experience, when doctrinally it’s something that is frowned upon quite strongly in the diocese? Because when we do talk about it we try and sweep it under the carpet.
- Should we prepare people more before they go to prepare (inoculate?) them against the charro stuff they’ll experience? Yes

I don’t mean to be too controversial or single out Sheldon, but I do think his post demonstrates perfectly why many of the younger people in the Sydney diocese lack critical thinking skills.

You’re right that we don’t talk (nor do the majority of clergy, let alone the laity understand anything) about “it”, and “it” encompasses anything other than biblical teaching according to the particular view endorsed by Moore College.
Now that’s one problem BUT in my view to talk about charo or liberal or liturgical worship or ROman Catholicism or anything Christian other than Moore College’s orthodoxy only to prepare (innoculate?) people AGAINST something actually works in direct opposition to the development of critical thinking or reasoning skills.

It is impossible to “innoculate” people against every idea or doctrine and infact this is tantamount to brainwashing, but if you teach people how to think for themselves, they’re less likely to fall prey to wolves in sheeps clothing. (For clarification there are wolves in the evo, charo, RC etc etc branches of Christianity, so I"m not singling any group out here).

Hi Melinda.

You raised some interesting points. Although I’m not 100% sure, I think Moore college does teach their students to think critically….though I also believe there is a fear amongst the student body that if they don’t spout the party line they will not be ordained…and if you are a minister within the diocese who does teach / preach other then the party line they may not be in line for promotion….

However its also been my experience that if a church wants a charismatic minister then the diocese will license a charismatic minister to that position….the same goes for Anglo Catholics.

One of the issues I have found in some circles and fought hard against over the years on this forum (old anglican forum) is the stereotyping of what one denomination believes etc.

I’m Pentecostal and proud of it. There is much to be proud of within the Pentecostal history though there is also much to be shamed by also…and the same goes within the Reformed and Protestant and indeed Christian history.

One of the things I enjoyed about college and am looking forward to resuming studies again in March after a year and a half’s absence is that time to time they had guest lecturer’s in from various denominations….Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and both the Principle and head of Biblical studies did their phd’s through Moore college….which gives the students much insight into other beliefs.

I was sorry to hear that recently at the Anglican church where I fellow shipped the guest preacher preached against Roman Catholics, about the period of the reformation and in doing so forgot to preach Christ crucified… it was more of a so called history lesson. I hope this is not indicative of much preaching throughout the diocese.

You raised some interesting points. Although I’m not 100% sure, I think Moore college does teach their students to think critically….though I also believe there is a fear amongst the student body that if they don’t spout the party line they will not be ordained…and if you are a minister within the diocese who does teach / preach other then the party line they may not be in line for promotion….

Hi Craig,

I think you might be assuming more than what I meant to say in my post.  I was referring to critical thinking and what is taught not just at MTC but also from the pulpit and in small groups and via Anglicanmedia etc.

I rather fear also that the suggestion you make that MTC graduates toe the party line for reasons of ambition is actually a worse criticism than that they don’t learn to consider alternative points of view.  I disagree on a few points, with what I understand the MTC/diocesan party line to be and the way in which it is communicated, but I very rarely doubt the sincerity of the belief of those who espouse it.

Hi Craig,

Craig Bennett - 27 January 2009 07:04 PM

It’s a pity that you don’t hear of any / many reformed evangelicals doing great works in the poorer countries or tackling huge global issues such as Aids,

Having used the CMS (ie. Anglican missionary society) prayer diary as a resource for global missions prayer, I can say with confidence that your above generalisation is without any kind of foundation. Don’t assume that just because you don’t hear of it, nothing is happening.

Reformed evangelicals working in poorer countries - how poor does a country have to be before you acknowledge the work that evangelical Anglicans might be doing there?

Are places such as Afghanistan, Cambodia, DR Congo, Ethiopia, India or the wider South Asian region not poor enough to be given a mention here?

CMS missionaries work in all the above nations (plus many more) in development and caring ministries. Here are some examples:

Cambodia ~ Sunshine Centre, providing basic needs like food, education and health care, to children whose families are much too poor to provide these things.
http://www.sunshinecentrecambodia.org/

Ethiopia ~ medical services to women of rural areas suffering from fistula/other injuries during childbirth
~ Retrak, a ministry reaching out to street kids.
http://www.retrak.org/

South Asia ~ programs to support girls living on the streets who are at high risk of sexual exploitation (to give names and places might endanger the work, so can’t give more details about this)

like you hear Hillsong, Saddleback church and others getting stuck into.

Oho, two can play at that game. Wasn’t Hillsong behind Mercy Ministries? And if so, we know what happened there, don’t we?

Perhaps now, with just that last comment, I’ve made an unfounded generalisation too. I stand quite open to any necessary correction.

TZ.

Tia - point taken, but that still leaves the question of why we are reluctant to talk about / publicise these ministries more than we do.

I also don’t think that there is much substance in any alleged spiritual link between “ministries to the poor” and “weird charismatic experiences”. Sure, they sometimes occur in the same place, but this seems to me to be more an outcome of the comparative wealth of western societies, combined with the scientific rationality of western societies.  I have no doubt that there are many places where ministries to the poor take place, but weird charismatic experiences do not, and vice versa.

Hi Tia…I have had a lot to do with CMS missionaries.

I pray for a few and was in regular contact with another…in Nigeria and in Northern Territory….its an interesting issue that is unknown here by most Sydney Angs that the Nigerian Anglican church is mostly Charismatic / Pentecostal in practice… while mostly high church Anglican in the ways of formal worship.

Its also one of the fastest growing / largest Anglican dioceses in the world…

While on this subject why is it a lot of CMS missionaries who come back tainted by the charismatic experience often get black banned from being licensed in Sydney from a senior position? I personally know of 3 CMS missionaries who were Anglican ministers who were so.

Tia Zheng - 30 January 2009 10:09 AM

Don’t assume that just because you don’t hear of it, nothing is happening.

Think David said it already, but the point remains that we (from an ordinary Christian’s viewpoint that reads the Southern Cross quite a bit) don’t traditionally hear about CMS or Anglicare, but we hear a lot about what other denominations’ charities are doing.  I sometimes feel ashamed that as a SA sympathetic, even Catholics show a lot more about their charitable works to the community than SAs do.

I wonder if the reluctance to talk about works of charity is a reflection of the fact that SAs value correct doctrine above evrything else?

To talk about charity, might lead people to the error of believing that they can earn their salvation through works.

Hi Melinda.

A question for you….when we get to heaven do you think Jesus is going to ask you what you believe or who you know?

I believe there is greater emphasis on loving God and loving your neighbor then there is in believing the right things…. and if believing the right things takes precedence over loving your neighbor… perhaps there is some problems….I did say takes precedence over…

The most loving thing we could ever do is ensure that people have a correct theology, that they truly know God, and have the strongest relationship possible.

A question for you….when we get to heaven do you think Jesus is going to ask you what you believe or who you know?

Craig,  I don’t think Jesus is going to care about people having a correct theology, he seemed pretty clear on condemning those who studied the scriptures but refused to come to Him.  Actually I think He’s going to sort the sheep from the goats and those who put greater precedence on theology than on feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and visiting the sick and imprisoned may find themselves with the goats.

Melinda Seed - 30 January 2009 08:02 PM

Actually I think He’s going to sort the sheep from the goats and those who put greater precedence on theology than on feeding the hungry and clothing the naked and visiting the sick and imprisoned may find themselves with the goats.

Yes, a healthy theology bears Spiritual fruit - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Gal 5:22-3). Let’s hope that our theology isn’t like that of the Pharasees.

Yes, a healthy theology bears Spiritual fruit - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Gal 5:22-3). Let’s hope that our theology isn’t like that of the Pharasees.

Angus, Gal 5:22-3 per the link you provided says

“But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things”

Which translation provides support for your substition of “the Holy Spirit” with a “healthy theology”?

Melinda Seed - 30 January 2009 08:32 PM

Which translation provides support for your substition of “the Holy Spirit” with a “healthy theology”?

Hi again Melinda.

If we have a “healthy” theology then we “know” God. But to “know” God he must be revealed to us by Jesus (Luke 10:22) through the Spirit (1 Cor 2:10).
So: healthy theology = know God = know Jesus = have the Spirit
Therefore: healthy theology = have the Spirit (Math 101 :))

Anyhow, I really am agreeing with you in that God is interested in our hearts not our minds. We will ultimately be judged by our deeds, the evidence that our faith is genuine.

Angus Johnson - 30 January 2009 10:05 PM

If we have a “healthy” theology then we “know” God. But to “know” God he must be revealed to us by Jesus (Luke 10:22) through the Spirit (1 Cor 2:10).
So: healthy theology = know God = know Jesus = have the Spirit
Therefore: healthy theology = have the Spirit (Math 101 :))

But that equation takes no account of cause and effect.  It is the Spirit that causes healthy theology, not healthy theology that causes the Spirit.