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There is already an asylum seeker thread, but this one is not about ‘boat people’.
 
I am wondering about Australian processes for granting refugee status and permanent residency.
 
I have recently received some information via iteams (a Christian organisation who works with refugees) concerning a family from the DR Congo who are seeking asylum.  They are described as having ‘experienced extraordinary suffering’ and ‘facing a very uncertain future’.  They believe their lives would be in danger if forced to return to Africa, and the iteams contact who has heard their story finds this convincing.  They have an interview with the Department of Immigration tomorrow to determine if their claim is valid, but the outcome of their residency application it seems is by no means certain. 
 
What sort of country are we becoming if we contemplate returning people to danger and possibly death?
 
The family is of Baha’i faith.

This is unreal :

Malaysia not sorry for caning of asylum seekers
Source:  ABC News   Published:  Friday, February 11, 2011

Australia has been accused of being complicit in Malaysia’s ‘inhumane’ treatment of asylum seekers.

ABC NEWS video clip :  http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2011/02/11/3136478.htm

Words fail ....

HI Ros,

You say “They believe their lives would be in danger if forced to return to Africa”.

Wouldnt there be some country in the whole of Africa which would not present such danger? Africa is a big place, and some countries would be surely safe? Or would those countries not accept them? Why just Australia?

I feel sorry for such people though, I must say.

PS: I am sure Australia and other well off western countries are more of a target for ecomomic reasons, surely - and this is why people want to come here. If people are given refugee status they are given everything, and most of them are a burden on the government coffers for life, not to mention their families and relatives as well.

I believe we should accept our quota of refugees though, but we should screen for those in most hardship, and then train them to find work etc. I just dont like to see people bludging on the system, I guess that is where I am coming from.

I wondered these sorts of things too.
 
I have recently received more detailed information on how they came to be in Australia.  They are currently in western Sydney.

They never planned to claim asylum in Australia - they never even intended to come here.  They thought their future lay in paid employment in Vanuatu, but when that unexpectedly fell through, they found themselves on a plane back to Africa, which to them meant they were being sent to their deaths.  A stop-over in Australia was their last chance to escape, so they took it

 
The man is a trained refrigeration mechanic and electrician.  I think the question is not so much does he want to work as will he find work.
 
I don’t know about other countries in Africa - I guess they’re here now, and have to make the best of the situation they are in.

That is an interesting one Ros.

It depends which country in Africa they were from.  Some countries are really ‘hell on earth’, while others (such as Kenya, Uganda and South Africa) are relatively better off.

I can imagine people going back to places like Somalia and getting killed.  For those people, compassion is key.  For others, I’d agree that extensive screening is required.

Must also say was pretty annoyed at some elements of the Coalition over the past week re: not paying for refugee funeral expenses.  Surely some compassion could have been had here too.

They are from the Democratic Republic of Congo.  Not a nice place, I understand.
 
The refugee workers are understandably discreet in what they make open knowlege, but have said the family have had “traumatic experiences along the refugee highway” (quoted from their newletter, as was the quote in #3).  These refugee workers are like domestic missionaries, and are linked with my church.  They have substantial personal contact with the family, and I am basically trusting their discernment of the situation in what they report.

I guess there should be another thread, but I really am amazed that people give accounts that they must be settled in Australia because their lives are in danger, when other countries than Australia, much closer to where they are fleeing,  would accept them.

I think word has got out that Australia is the best country to come to (which it surely is); and they want, for economic reasons, want to come here. Reasons are then devised, and because of soft beaucratic and legal processes here they weasel themselves into our refugee process and enter the handout system that is there on the tree.

I see legal immigration solicitors everywhere in the very very culturally diverse suburbs that I vist every day. Really it is a rort.

Not saying that your poeple, Ros, are not entitled to waltz in here like so many others have, and and raid that tree for all it’s worth.

I am mainly concerned by Islamic migration/refugeeship like so many others in the community are at this time. Muslims seem to not contribute greatly to our society after coming here. The statistics on them are horrifying. I have heard that about 55-60% of muslims available to work, are claiming social security - many of them doing so despite earning money from non declared income. This was revealed on radio some time ago by a Govt social security Public servant.  Black market activities are also another lucritive source of income in the Muslim population. Gaol stats indicate a trend in that direction.. In France, where they have a larger muslim population, there are 40% muslims in gaols there, with a 5% population. It will increase here too when we get more of them coming here.

(European countries have become aware of the problems that Muslims bring to their Western/Christian based countries. There are now moves there to restrict Muslim entry. When will Australia recognise this threat? One Australian Senator recently produced a signed petition to place a 10 year moratorium on Muslims coming into Australia. The petition only had a handful of signatures, but listening recently to a 2UE talkback show, the host asked people to ring in and say whether they would also sign such a petition. A vast majority of the callers said they would do so. I personally dont think this should happen, but Muslims in Australia need some education on their culture, and how it needs to be a plus for Australia, not a negative.)

I dont think African people coming here present such a threat, and most of them try to find honest work. I would like to see closer scrutiny given by public officials, checking up on our recent arrivals, making sure they are not rorting the system, and are urged to get employed and go off the social security hand outs.

I think word has got out that Australia is the best country to come to (which it surely is)

Hear hear!

I think the greater issue, in addressing the previous points, is that people come to neighbouring nations such as Indonesia or Malaysia.  Then they come to Australia when Indonesia or Malaysia should really be sufficient protection from the (often real) trials and temptations that the refugees are feeling in their home country.

I would like to speak directly to refugees to see what they are going through though.  That could confirm or deny whether many refugees are genuine or economic.

Probably a bit slow picking this up, but it seems some of those killed off Christmas Island were Christians from Iran.
link
I’d say any Christians leaving Iran are legitimate asylum seekers, and wouldn’t be suitably ok in Indonesia either!
 

I guess there should be another thread, but

Hi Ken, I didn’t think anything you wrote was particularly off-topic.
My idea for this thread is to discuss our Christian responsibilities to be kind to the alien and stranger in our land.  Considering the real ambiguities and complications we have.  I just didn’t want to get mired in the politicisation stuff.

I recently heard an Afghanistani refugee, living here in Australia, publicly state on the radio station I was listening to, that the latest crop of so-called Afghanistani asylum seekers at Christmas Island were in fact Pakistani. Pakistan doesnt have a big danger problem but these ones were after the dough apparantly.

Most of these asylum seekers keep their passports to get into Indonesia, board a boat finance by Malaysian crims, and toss away the passports in order to prolong the process.

I know we are to be compassionate towards people in need, but how great is the need in many cases. And most people of the Islamic faith see Christians as vermin and enemies, in the countries they come from - they treat Christians inhumanely. They dont come as friendly people, and most dont change despite how welcome they are made to feel. It is like inviting a strong man into your home.

I dont think we should forgive anyone who doesnt deserve forgiveness. Transgressors deserve nothing unless they repent, and that has biblical roots. That is how God treats all people.

Gracious, Ken, where did that bit about deserving forgiveness or not come from?  Isn’t that somewhat beside the point?  Besides, theologically speaking, as a Calvinist I don’t think anyone deserves forgiveness. 
 
I agree there’s a big problem with many people not being legit.  And especially with those whose beliefs are inimical to our way of life.  And with the deliberate disposal of passports. I probably should have made that plain earlier.  I’m not sure what you thought I was advocating.  I’m not happy with providing ‘asylum’  for these people either.
 
When it comes to assessing the situation, whose reports does one believe, and how far should one generalise?  An Afghan refugee makes claims about some other asylum seekers, that they are not legit.  Is he reliable?  And therefore should we generalise that most asylum seekers are not legit? 
 
I wasn’t trying to generalise from one case.  My basic line of thought in the OP was this particular family really seemed legit, and was surprised there should be uncertainty over such a seemingly strong claim.  Unfortunately, I suspect many abusers and negative generalisations unfairly impact those in genuine need. 
 
I have personally met the people working with these refugees that the report is from.  They don’t seem gullible or naive.  Possibly they particularly have contact with people in real difficulty.  People from different countries and of different faiths, eg: Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, China, Sudan, Pakistan, Congo, Sikh, Muslim, Ba’hai.

The bit about “deserving forgiveness” is just a tad wrong Ken.
It’s also logically wrong if you are trying to tack that onto folks who are fleeing the country to which you are ascribing that particular condemnation.
As for making Muslims out to be particularly bad when they get here…. once again. The same claims were also made about every previous wave of boat people and refugees. When I worked in Cabramatta (Drug & Alcohol worker back then) I looked into the history of the various waves of immigrants. English immigrants were of particular noteriety in the media. They were linked to gangs, rapes, thefts, robberies, assaults .... all sorts of evils. Of course they were lazy and bludgers too.
Dreadful people- should have stopped them!
The Greeks & Italians as well. Orthodox and Catholics! Bludgers! Came out here and stole our jobs! Dreadful people.
What about those rotten Vietnamese? Criminals and bludgers as well. And they stole our jobs too. Catholics and Buddhists! We should have stopped them. We were at war with them weren’t we? Dreadful people.
Now it’s those dreaded Muslims. Look at em. Bludgers and criminals! Bludgers, stealing our jobs and all.

Why didn’t the English stop off in a country closer to them? What about those Greeks & Italians?
Remember those awful Jews who came here after the 2nd World War? There were places all over Europe they could have stopped in. Yes indeed.
What about those Cambodian refugees? Economic refugees said Bob Hawk. Dreadful bludgers taking our jobs. There were plenty of nearby countries they could have stopped in.
I think we should stop all those boat people and refugees, after all, they are taking our jobs, warping our society and they are bludgers too!

Really?
No
We are commanded to look after the lost, the homeless and those in need. There was no special dispensation given if we happened to dislike a group (which apparently some do)
Certain comments on this thread are just variants of “I don’t like what’s happened to my shopping trolley”.
Please explain.

I remember a sermon by Peter Jensen some years ago.

The hypothetical proposition that someone had killed his wife was presented. What should be the correct Christian response.

Peter said he would pray for the man, and visit him in gaol in all love. But forgiveness would not be given unless he repented and was truly sorry for his act. To forgive someone for a crime against one without that person repenting would not be the correct response.

The usual suspect has come out the woodwork with the usual response I notice, but I say that unless Muslims change their attitudes towards Christians, it is futile to welcome them, or even forgive the Muslim attitude towards Christians.

I would say that most “refugees” from the middle east need to have some wealth to come here, and most of them are said to be here for economic reasons mainly. And I think it is crazy for such people coming from such countries to not adapt and adopt a new culture, and not cling onto a culture which has failed them.

I must say I have never had any problem with most ethnic people, Italians, Greeks, Eastern European, Poms, Asians. But Muslims are a different proposition according to their vendetta against Western society which exists in the good and the bad of them.

“But forgiveness would not be given unless he repented and was truly sorry for his act.”
Conditional forgiveness? Not related to any Christian doctrine I can adhere to. Also logically flawed. Firstly the argument assumes that all Muslims have the same attitude, support the same policies and are of the same theological persuasion. An astonishing set of assumptions that could not be applied to any other group, but somehow it’s OK to apply to Muslims.

“but I say that unless Muslims change their attitudes towards Christians, it is futile to welcome them, or even forgive the Muslim attitude towards Christians.”
Indeed you do and I am hardly surprised. But I for one won’t be congratulating anyone on taking such a position. It is based on broad generalisations about Muslims… the very meat & gristle of racism.

“I would say that most “refugees” from the middle east need to have some wealth to come here” Oh no, they spent their life savings to escape regimes we condemn as repugnant! How naughty of them.

“and most of them are said to be here for economic reasons mainly.” Said by whom specifically? I note that you seem to be referring to people admitted as refugees by due process. I also remember that same claim being levelled by Bob Hawke at the Cambodian refugees. naughty economic refugees escaping for financial reasons. The wholesale slaughter of 1/3 of the people being a minor item.

“I would say that most “refugees” from the middle east need to have some wealth to come here, and most of them are said to be here for economic reasons mainly.”
Yes you might indeed say that. Mind you, the revolutions happening in those places now are probably putting lie to that claim. I’d prefer facts to assumptions.

“And I think it is crazy for such people coming from such countries to not adapt and adopt a new culture,” Er… it took until the late 1950’s for us to really start ditching all illusions of being a wing of Great Britain. How dumb are we by your standard? It took us many generations and you want them to do it in less than one? Curious.

“and not cling onto a culture which has failed them.” Yes cos changing a culture is an instant thing which any human being can do quickly.

“But Muslims are a different proposition according to their vendetta against Western society which exists in the good and the bad of them.”
Because they are all the same aren’t they? Muslims from Indonesia are exactly the same as those in Iran, Syria, Nigeria or England. I’d suggest an argument based on logic, facts and a reduced level of hyperbole.

Just a note. The demand to ditch a culture is astonishingly naive, disrespectful and impugns other cultures whilst elevating our own, all by implication. Curiously the standards by which our own culture and the other are judged are all based on our own cultural assumptions and this rather makes for a circular argument.
Cultures imply so much more than the food we eat, clothes we wear and the language we speak. Inherent in cultural assumptions are ideas about time, identity, belonging, family, what is and isn’t acceptable, right down to simple things like how close is appropriate to stand near someone whilst talking to them. The demand that this is ditched is absurd. Even if a culture is similar to our own this is far more difficult than it looks. (I believe the term “whinging Pom” is still in use & is representative of this difficulty) Ken you may think culture is some sort of skin or coat that can be shed without any problem but that belief is based on .... well nothing really.

A further note on the use of the term “economic refugee”. I referred to its history (in part) when I recalled Hawke’s use in his campaign against the Cambodian refugees. I doubt anyone would easily claim now that they were “economic refugees”. The term is an off the shelf pejorative that can be used to cast doubt on a group of refugees. it says they aren’t escaping real persecution and at the same time gives the listener a bit of an emotional boost- after all, “we have a vibrant economy & they don’t. No wonder they want to come here, but since they aren’t genuine we can send them back”
It fails to account why they risk life and limb, partner and children to travel across dangerous waters and through hostile territory to get here. It is often presented by people who simultaneously and without logic, will claim that harsh penalty regimes for “illegals” are really about protecting people from those same travails in travel.

It fails to account why they risk life and limb, partner and children to travel across dangerous waters and through hostile territory to get here.

 
Owen, do you completely discount multiple accounts that some or many of the people who arrive here do not qualify as genuine refugees?  I can think of two things that could account for this risking of life and limb. 
1.  They perceive coming to Australia a good option compared to life in their country of origin - but nevertheless, do not qualify as persecuted etc. 
2.  They are misinformed or underestimate the real risks.
 
I am inclined to think the situation is very mixed, and generalisations very unhelpful, as well as feeding the demonisation that goes on.

I agree Ros
The situation is exceedingly mixed and highly nuanced.
I think a few might underestimate the risks, but for folks who would argue that they are well informed about our laws and policies, then this is something of a counter argument against this claim. ie: if they are well informed about our policies, then it becomes more likely that they are also informed about the risks.
If they understand the risks and are coming here cos of your option 1) then conditions at home must indeed be terrible.

I have no problem with what you are saying as what you are not doing is casting a blanket of aspersions over a group and demanding “Islam” (which means submission) from them. You are asking questions not pontificating answers. I have encountered refugees whose admission to this country was questionable. I know at least one such from the Post WW2 days. But the few (and they are hardly the majority) who come here for reasons other than fleeing war or persecution are hardly reason to treat them all as pariahs.

I was listening to a radio article this morning about the Coptic Church in Egypt. There was a lot of talk about how when some Muslims made threats (and worse) against the Coptics, the churches were being surrounded by Muslims protecting them from this violence.
Perhaps these also should be punished and made to apologise? After all, apparently they are all the same.

I read an interesting report from this weekend’s UK magazines. A vicar’s wife reports on her stay in a Muslim land:

Mole Special: A Stranger in My Own Land       January/February 2011

I have just returned to London, where I have lived since I was 11. I have been away for four years, living as an ethnic minority in a monocultural part of the world, amassing a host of stories to tell to disbelieving friends. On the whole, I am glad to return. I shan’t miss some locals’ assumptions that, being a white woman, if I was outside after dark, as I occasionally was, usually to walk the few metres between my house and the church, I must be a prostitute eager to give them a blow job. I shan’t miss the abuse my priest husband received: the daubing of “Dirty white dogs” in red paint on the church door, the barrage of stones thrown at him by children shouting “Satan”. He was called a “f***ing white bastard” more than once, though, notably, never when in a cassock. I will also not miss the way our garden acted as the local rubbish dump, with items ranging from duvets and TV sets, to rats (dead or twitching) glued to cardboard strips, a popular local method of vermin control to stem the large numbers of them which scuttled between the rubbish piled in gardens and on pavements. Yes, I am very glad to have left Britain’s second city.

For four years, we lived in inner-city Birmingham, in what has been a police no-go area for 20 years. We know that because some plain-clothed cops told us when they asked to use our vicarage as a stake-out to bust drugs rings that pervade the area. Having heard a parishioner’s tales of what his neighbours did to him when he was wrongfully suspected of having grassed up a cock-fighting ring, we refused, explaining that we had to live here, they didn’t. Even during this time we saw the area change. When we arrived, the population was predominantly Pakistani. Now Somalis are there in equal number. Most of the run-down Irish pubs were turned into mosques during our time.

As a woman, it was difficult for me to gain many first-hand impressions of the Muslims. I was generally ignored by both men and women, and on the rare occasion that I had to interact, when for example a car was parked illegally and blocking my gate, I was addressed as if inconsequential. My husband, however, faithfully reported conversations which you may find somewhat alarming. One of our favourite dinner-party pieces is this: opposite our vicarage there is a “library” which has some computers, some burkas and occasionally tracts that say offensive things about Jews and Christians. My husband did his photo-copying there, and got on rather well with everybody. One day he was chatting to a man with a passing resemblance to Lawrence of Arabia, who had just arrived from Antwerp — one of an increasing number of Muslims who are arriving here with EU passports. He asked him why he had come to Birmingham. He was surprised at the question: “Everybody know. Birmingham — best place in Europe to be pure Muslim.” Well, there must be many places in Europe where Muslims are entirely free to practise their faith, but I suspect there are few places in which they can have so little contact with the civic and legal structure of a Western state if they choose. It seems to be particularly easy to “disappear” if that is their intention. A parishioner once described a lorry pulling up outside his house, the side opening to reveal stacked mattresses full of sleepy, and presumably illegal, immigrants, who staggered out into broad Brummie daylight. We heard tales of how houses are exchanged for cash payments in our area. An untaxed car was once clamped by a frightened-looking official at 8am, but within hours the owner of the vehicle had organised the clamps to be sawn off, and he sped away.

Another instance of separation from the Western world is revealed in the following: my husband frequently chatted to a neighbour who could be described as one of the more questioning Muslims, and who has often provided an insight into the locals’ mindset. Even this man, however, believes what the whole community thinks: the 9/11 planes were organised by Jews. Everybody knows there were no Jewish people in the World Trade Centre that day, as they had been tipped off. Oh, and the Mumbai terrorists had been kidnapped and brainwashed by Indian people. The tendency towards denial is strong. When my husband mentioned the “dirty white dogs” graffiti to a local Muslim, the response was, “One of your people did it.” I have to say that the police’s response was no better when the local Methodists complained about the same thing. They chose not to believe it had happened, since we had removed all sign of it with the buckets of anti-graffiti chemicals we had stocked since we arrived. They asked, somewhat pathetically: “Are you sure it was racist?”

To a London reader, born and bred with multiculturalism, I know that my stories may come across as outlandish and exaggerated, and that I must surely be a BNP voter — I have observed people’s expressions as they have listened to my tales of life in Brum. When I recently told a friend how a large Taliban flag fluttered gaily on a house near St Andrew’s football stadium for some months, her cry of “Can’t you tell the police?” made me reflect how far many of our inner cities have been abandoned by our key workers: our doctors and nurses drive in from afar, the police, as mentioned before, have shut down their stations and never venture in unless in extremis — they and ambulance crews have been known to be attacked — even the local Imam lives in a leafier area.

Only the priest remains, if you can get one — the thriving but clerically-vacant church down the road has had no applicant in two years. In their absence, we get stabbings that never make the news, dog- and cock-fighting rings, cars torched as pranks and cars used for peddling heroin. (One of the more amusing moments of our time came when a local lad provided one reason people often gave us stares when we drove past such deals: “Two white people wearing seatbelts — you’ve got to be cops.”) In their absence, we simply have the witness of those who are unlikely to be heard, who, through a variety of unfortunate circumstances, have not been able to move out: the elderly, the infirm, the illiterate, the chronically poor. Indeed, some of the Muslim residents deeply regret the flight of the non-Muslim population. It is they who now have to live in a crime-ridden ghetto.

On holiday in Germany recently, we watched a TV documentary about how schools were coping with Essen’s growing Muslim community, and how the community itself felt. When it was over, we turned to each other, and said simultaneously (a drawback of having been married for a while), “This could not have been made in Britain.” At the moment, also in Germany, the whole country is debating Thilo Sarrazin’s controversial book Deutschland schafft sich ab (“Germany abolishes itself”), in which the author — a former member of the board of the Bundesbank and the German Social Democrats — examines research about immigrant communities and then makes specific recommendations about the integration of the Muslim community. I have only seen scant reference to this in the British press, which usually dismisses it, wrongly and lazily in my view, as good old German racism. This has nothing whatsoever to do with race. The Muslim community in Birmingham, for instance, is made up of people from many continents and races, including Afghans, Yemenis, Pakistanis, Indians and Somalis.

There is no doubt in my mind that we need to have the same openness in discussing what is happening to many cities in Britain. If current demographic trends continue over the next few decades, the West Midlands, as well as other parts of the country, will become a predominantly Muslim area. Much more needs to be done to integrate the communities among whom I lived, and we need to be much less negligent of our own values too. Frankly, if we happened to walk down Broad Street on a Friday night, where mobs of identically undressed and mostly aesthetically unpleasing gals and lads were on the piss and pull, it was almost a relief to drive back to our ghetto enclave.

It is time to rub the rime from our eyes and to look clearly at the shape of Britain today. Everyone living here needs to be able to talk about what they see, without the lazy or fearful, but certainly paralysing, accusation of racism. Only then will we be able to discern what is best for the future.

source

When man sins, and then refuses the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to repent of it, this sin is the sin of blasphemy, thus making it unforgivable. At this point in a person’s life, should breathe fail to fill their lungs, or their heart fail to beat, their eternal soul would plummet to its punishment.

Luke 12:10 “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”

Mark 3:29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.”

I would have to say that I have no personal dislike of individual Muslim people. I often have friendly discourse with them.

I have an issue with Islam - the religious teachings, the political force and the backward cultural ways which are based on medieval ways of thinking. Islam, which is in opposition to Christ, and God.

And I am opposed to having people live with us, who may see our culture as something to overrun, and abuse; possibly living as benign enemies in our midst. Islam is something born to defeat other cultures and nations and bring them into submission to their ways. And like an enemy who wants to bring Western culture down, and enforce evil and wrong ways on us, I am loathe to bend over and let it happen.

I think it is our duty as Christians to point out what Islam is in reality. We should base our opposition on the truth of its history, its ways in countries where it dominates, and its treatment of people who don’t bend to their desire. That is what am unable to forgive - Islam. And I dont allow myself to be beguiled by people practicing that way of life, no matter what. I do try to be friendly to Muslims, I try to get them to ask questions about their Islam, and especially the character of the man who began the cult in the first place. I would love them to find the true Jesus, and not be led astray by the lies of Islam.

Australia needs to look at the Muslim experience overseas, and not be so stupid to allow that to happen here also. They are unlike other cultures that have come here. Islam is really the enemy of Christianity, and of other people too. We should not be blind to that fact.

PS; I mentioned that I heard a sermon by Peter Jensen years ago. I hope I got his message right, though that is what I thought was said at the time. I might be wrong though.

So basically you are saying that Muslims are all in a state of being unforgivable to us because they haven’t repented. In what way then are they different from any other person as far as this doctrine goes?
eg; A materialist, a Buddhist, an unrepentant Baptist….
Huh?
Are you claiming special conditions for Muslims? Do you have the same approach to say, people from the People’s Republic of China? Or Burma?

I note you have claims about Islam and think that it constitutes a threat. To a point I agree insofar as Islam is more prone to radicalism than most other religeons.
I wonder how you think attacking Muslims is a helpful thing to do. Your attitude towards those who are refugees from places that are being torn apart in conflict and persecution belies your claims to be attacking the faith and not the persons. You have outright said that most of them are lying, not genuine refugees and should not be admitted to this country. I think a more honest approach is warranted. Just say outright that you don’t want to admit them, no matter how hard their circumstances. At least you won’t be adding to their indignities by calling them liars. You are instead just refusing them on the basis of their beliefs.

Islam does not repent its evil and wrong ways. They carry on in the same direction century after century. Should that be forgiven?

Dont you know what they teach?

They seem to be the biggest problem in the world today, especially against western culture. They bring that problem everywhere they go, and are as resistant to change as the cockroaches under my fridge.

Owen, I will allow you to bend over to an enemy culture if that is what you find Politically correct, that is your right sir.

“Islam does not repent its evil and wrong ways.”
Islam is not Muslims. It is a religeon, split into many sects and is at war with itself in places. It isn’t a single entity. It has fundamentalists, liberals and a raft of secularists.

“They carry on in the same direction century after century. Should that be forgiven?”
No they don’t. Some do, some don’t. Your ability to generalise is astonishing and logically flawed. (ie; irrational)

“Dont you know what they teach?”
Probably better than you.

“They seem to be the biggest problem in the world today, especially against western culture.”
By “they” you apparently mean all Muslims. My liberal Muslim co-worker whose mother (a Muslim) works at St Vinnies as well as Osama Bin Laden. You don’t see the irrationality of this?

“and are as resistant to change as the cockroaches under my fridge.”
That is disgusting. As far as this comment goes you have descended into sheer abuse. You’re being something straight out abusive and insulting.

“Owen, I will allow you to bend over to an enemy culture if that is what you find Politically correct, that is your right sir.”
Whatever.

Just to be clear Ken,
I may indeed be motivated by something you call “political correctness”. I assume by this you mean I am toeing some sort of party line- albeit undefined.
I would however contend that I am taking this stance for the following reasons;
1) I lived in a Muslim country as a teenager. I noticed that the Australians were typically racist and derogatory- and this was while we lived in their country (Malaysia). I learned the language (although I have forgotten a lot from disuse) and found the culture engaging.
2) I also noticed that most of the Muslims I befriended or talked to were decent people, non-radical and accepting. I returned to Australia and the very first thing I noticed at my school was rampant and abusive racism. So you could make a claim that I am acutely aware of racism and similar conditions in Australians. That would be more accurate than your ignorant accusation of political correctness.
3) I have worked in multicultural settings- as you know. Working in Cabramatta taught me a lot about other cultures, multi-culturism, and gave me a good knowledge of how different migration waves have been greeted in this country. Curiously I found your commentary to be an echo of previous claims made against Asians and the Irish.
4) I prefer a more rational approach to most subjects. Your generalisations are obvious and hugely irrational. Your claims of friendliness to Muslims is curiously reflective of the very accusation you make against them. You fake interest and respect to find out about them and then to attack. (Your recent posts are nothing more than attacks)