An extraordinary book:
When Alex Malarkey was six years old he and Kevin (Dad) were involved in a car accident. Kevin was not injured, but Alex sustained a serious neck injury. After 2 months in a coma he slowly regained consciousness. He then started talking about having been to heaven, seeing angels and speaking to God.
Now a 6 year old does not imagine these things. He has never read about them or talked about them. Throughout the next years Alex keeps talking about these things. He is totally changed by this encounter. He still sees angels who one day heal his vertebrae. So far he remains completely paralysed but always talks about his saviour.
It becomes a local, then world wide, prayer ministry.
The soft cover book is available from Koorong
See also http://www.prayforalex.com/
Elly Just goes to illustrate something that has always been a cornerstone of my faith. God has evolved the genes in humans which give us the capability and desire to seek God, ie God is within us and no need to believe solely in some ancient manuscript of man.
Elly, how do we know for sure that the boy was never exposed to stories of angels etc? Also, can you tell us more about what specifically God said to him? And why would God say he would heal him and not do so?
Doug, what do you mean by “God is within us”? And you say that we don’t need to believe solely in an ancient manuscript, which I’d agree with of course. But your implication seems to be that we should not believe in some ancient manuscripts, such as Romans 3. Why should we not?
Hi Danni,
The book was written by Kevin, his father. He knows that they never discussed angels. Alex made the comments and Kevin wrote them down. One of the things even Kevin finds astonishing is that Alex starts quoting Revelaton. Now Kevin knows that he has never discussed Revelation with Alex.
I don’t know why God did not completely heal him. But the angels did heal the dislocated vertebrae which in itself is a miraculous thing.
Elly.
Well Dannii, IF like most Christians (if they care at all) you believe that Genesis is compatible with evolution theory, then the memes and/or genes have been developed by God in the creation of man. It was perhaps the way man comunicated with God before Jesus was sent to planet earth.
If a man said that he had been talking with angels of God over 2000 yrs ago, he would not have been believed unless mankind had the capacity to believe build into his genes. Like a Laptop with Bluetooth.
Dannii, Macquarie dictionary has 7 interpretations for the word “seek”. You would have to do a bit of explaining for me to see your point. It’s obvious to me that all Christians seek God.
Re “heritable traits” , I think you are taking the facts a bit too far. I think many theologians do this ie they try to personalise God and understand in human terms.
An example that comes to mind is a prominent Pentacostal preacher who demanded to know why people could believe they were created by “chance”, ie by evolution. This is a blatant attempt to 2nd guess and personalise God IMO.
God is all powerful and beyond comprehension. This is central to our faith. God also gave us brains to understand many thinngs about the world God created for us. It is important not to mix the two I believe. But it is hard to avoid when we keep callimg God “HE”.
Doug, you said “the memes and/or genes have been developed by God in the creation of man. It was perhaps the way man comunicated with God before Jesus was sent to planet earth.” All I meant by “heritable traits” is “memes and/or genes”. Can you explain how God may have communicated with us through out memes and genes?
Dannii I think the point is that man alone is the only creation of God that has the affrontry to seek ,to reach out for a creator or to tell a story about where we came from and where we are going. Many other creations of God communicate eg wolves. whales and bees, but as far as we know they don’t ask where they came from. Wolves howl together in a circle but as far as I know they just like the music of their voices, just as we do.
As to the “how”, well I think it is impertinent for us to expect God to give us a mobile number, but various people in the Bible tell us of their experiences.
Hi Dannii,
I think Doug is just claiming that awareness of God is hard-wired into us. Psychologists and neurologists have worked together to develop a theory that all humans are born with a “Language Acquisition Device” that helps us pick up language as it is practised around and on us. Maybe Doug is thinking that somewhere, somehow God burnt a “GAD” into us… a “God Awareness Device.”
I think this is consistent with Scripture. Try Romans 1:20 (below) not Romans 3, general revelation (that condemns) not special revelation (that saves through a knowledge of God’s grace).
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
I might phrase it differently, but I think Doug’s basic concept is entirely true — but not from my own experience of the world, but from the special revelation given to us all.
Doug wrote:
God is all powerful and beyond comprehension. This is central to our faith. God also gave us brains to understand many thinngs about the world God created for us. It is important not to mix the two I believe. But it is hard to avoid when we keep callimg God “HE”.
Doug, how do you know God is beyond comprehension? Who says so? If your basis of knowledge is some subjective vibe you get from your “God Awareness Device” (GAD) how do I know your vision of God is correct? Your GAD might be broken. We are complex multifaceted creatures, and quite broken, distorted, and weak. So on what authority do you say God is beyond our comprehension?
I for one don’t think I can ever ‘understand’ the Trinitarian God’s infinite, self-existent spiritual nature. But I can comprehend that He is a He. He told me so when He sent His Son into the world. You say we have brains that can figure things out. When a guy lives a life and dies a death that was prophesied hundreds of years before, and then rises to new life, people take note. When that same guy says HE was God, and says he died for our sin, and gave the eyewitnesses of these things his Holy Spirit to help them record His message perfectly, we should take note. The eyewitnesses of these events demand our attention. They say their message, their ‘gospel’, is God-breathed. Their message changed people. It changed the early disciples, they changed the ancient world, and eventually changed the Roman Empire and the whole of Western history! We should take note of this “God-breathed” word. That makes sense to my brain.
I want to know what made sense to your brain to such an extent that you would regard the bible as a trivial source of knowledge about our God, and why you are so condescending towards what God has told us about Himself.
Thanks for your helpful comments Dave. However I would consider awareness as being very different from communication. I had interpreted Doug as saying that through our genes somehow we could communicate with God, rather than, as I would say, through human language (scripture and prayer), and through his son (the right to communicate, not the medium!)
Hey, Doug well may be saying more than I would support. I was just backing up a smaller level of his assertions with my own very basic understanding of ‘general revelation’ versus ‘special revelation’.
As for this statement…
I think many theologians do this ie they try to personalise God and understand in human terms.
Doug, what do you do about the fact that the Bible claims God is not only personal with 3 persons in 1 unified Godhead, but that God also became a human? Jesus took on humanity, and was both fully God and fully human.
Rather than us dressing up God as human, the Bible claims God clothed Himself in human form, and took on human nature. And remains that way! As a teenager I used to think that when Jesus ascended into heaven, He got rid of this messy ‘physical’ form, this monkey-humanity, this meat. But no. When I meet Him, I’ll be able to shake His hand. (If that’s the protocol!)
That’s so astonishing I have to write it in capital letters: I’m not shouting, but we’ll be able to SHAKE GOD’S HAND!
Dave Your exegesis of the subject (#498) does the Mighty Church proud.Of course there are many significant errors. The incomprehensibility of God stuck in my mind when God told Moses “I am what I am”. Many other Bible references only confuse the issue which is not uncommon with the Bible. However the Athanasus Creed ( part of the Anglican doctrine as outlined in the Articles of Religion art8 ) states ” The Father Inconprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible; the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible ” This was the position in 300AD at the founding of the Christian Church. The Koran also is very adamant about the incomprehensiblity of God.
I don’t of course downgrade the Bible. All Christians love and believe the Bible. But there is nothing about Climate Change in the Bible is there!
Many Christians, especially the lazy power gluttons of the church, find it easier to use the Bible as a battering ram. That’s what the Pharisees did to the early Christians, even though the early Christians believed the OT and quoted it frequently in the new testament. Time for a change.
Dave Your exegesis of the subject (#498) does the Mighty Church proud.Of course there are many significant errors. The incomprehensibility of God stuck in my mind when God told Moses “I am what I am”. Many other Bible references only confuse the issue which is not uncommon with the Bible. However the Athanasus Creed ( part of the Anglican doctrine as outlined in the Articles of Religion art8 ) states ” The Father Inconprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible; the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible ” This was the position in 300AD at the founding of the Christian Church. The Koran also is very adamant about the incomprehensiblity of God.
I don’t of course downgrade the Bible. All Christians love and believe the Bible. But there is nothing about Climate Change in the Bible is there!
Many Christians, especially the lazy power gluttons of the church, find it easier to use the Bible as a battering ram. That’s what the Pharisees did to the early Christians, even though the early Christians believed the OT and quoted it frequently in the new testament. Time for a change.
Many Christians, especially the lazy power gluttons of the church, find it easier to use the Bible as a battering ram. That’s what the Pharisees did to the early Christians, even though the early Christians believed the OT and quoted it frequently in the new testament. Time for a change.
I’m confused: a change to what?
Whatever the arrogance of various right-wing church groups that deny climate change, whatever the practice in the local church, whatever the faults of individual Christians or whole denominations, I’m convinced that God has been clear on the place of the bible in our lives: it is the final word. Interpreting that word may take a lifetime, especially in the subtle areas. But on the ‘biggies’ Dannii and I would agree! We might have some disagreements over minor eschatological issues, but on the majors we are in complete agreement. God says the bible is the God-breathed message able to fully equip us for all things to do with our relationship with Him.
Now, you somehow tied in climate change in there, but we are primarily discussing the ‘know-ability’ of God. He has made Himself known, even if His being and eternal nature remain mysterious. Out of knowing God, and His love for both His people and His creation, we can draw lessons on the importance of solving climate change and peak oil in the most loving, careful manner we can. But that’s where Christians are free to disagree. As you point out, the bible doesn’t address those issues specifically! So we draw on the general principles of God’s love for us and our corresponding love for others, and find ourselves compelled to take action on these issues. (If we accept the science in the first place. Some here have let their politics interfere with their ability to accept certain sciences, but we’ll leave that for the climate thread).
Dave Re above it should be no surprise that I agree with most of your Bible loving bit. It is the way that it is used that concerns me.
It is the messages of the Bible that should be used to convert non-christians and comfort Christians. The bible is too often used like the Inquisitors did centuries ago. Or the Spanish did with the South Americans. It was the rifle behind the the Bible that the natives believed in. They couldn’t even read! Many Africans accept the Bible. But it is like throwing a bone to a pack of dogs, By the time they have finished fighting over the bone, they have forgotten what the bone is supposed to be for.
We could learn from the Pentacostals. There is no doubt that whatever they are doing is successful in bringing people to God and following Jesus. My experience is that there is a very subtle difference in the way they use the Bible. Their sermons use many Bible verses to illustrate some message applicable to modern life. Of course they also have charismatic preachers, big churches,big togeterness, big prosperity etc.
It is a subtle change but a business investor losing a point on his shares could mean his company may fold. And I don’t think anyone would argue that the Pentacostals are not business- like.
To go back to our thread subject, I think we should listen critically to a"boy who came back from heaven”. Until shown otherwise anyone could be a new prophet from God, even you or me. We are not to know the time or place or manner.
Look at the model of Christian living Paul gives his young friend Timothy. Where does he recommend Timothy go for guidance?
10You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The tricky bit is realising that the gospel message the Apostles were teaching and or writing also had the hallmarks of “Scripture” and were also “God-breathed”. Basically, as I understand it, the bible makes a clear case that Jesus was the Word. Jesus was the final prophet, the ultimate Logos from God, the meaning of life that the Greeks had been looking for. Jesus was the Son of God, the mystery of God revealed, the means and the message, all of it. Once Jesus ascended into heaven, the Apostles were just communicating that perfect life through the Holy Spirit’s help. When we look at John 16 through the eyes of the Disciples, worried about all this talk of Jesus leaving them, we realise that John 16 is a special promise of the Holy Spirit particular to the Disciples (as only they were eyewitnesses of Jesus 3 year ministry, death, and resurrection — his whole work).
So basically I see Jesus as saying the job of the Holy Spirit is not to give new revelation, but to help the Disciples remember (and eventually record) the life works and teaching of Jesus perfectly. This is why the bible really is the “Sword of the Spirit”. (Ephesians 6).
But back to John 16.
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
The Disciples’ Grief Will Turn to Joy
17Some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”
19Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, “Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me’? 20I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.
25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”
29Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”
Basically, I run from any new ‘revelations’. I would throw this book in the bin.
Dave Re above it should be no surprise that I agree with most of your Bible loving bit. It is the way that it is used that concerns me.
It is the messages of the Bible that should be used to convert non-christians and comfort Christians. The bible is too often used like the Inquisitors did centuries ago. Or the Spanish did with the South Americans. It was the rifle behind the the Bible that the natives believed in. They couldn’t even read! Many Africans accept the Bible. But it is like throwing a bone to a pack of dogs, By the time they have finished fighting over the bone, they have forgotten what the bone is supposed to be for.
Are you going to give specific evidence or just keep to non-committal generalities?
We could learn from the Pentacostals. There is no doubt that whatever they are doing is successful in bringing people to God and following Jesus. My experience is that there is a very subtle difference in the way they use the Bible. Their sermons use many Bible verses to illustrate some message applicable to modern life. Of course they also have charismatic preachers, big churches,big togeterness, big prosperity etc.
There is a lot that non-Pentecostal Christians should learn from Pentecostal Christians. This is most definitely not one of them. Using the Bible to illustrate a modern message? How pathetic! How unlike a two-edged sword (Heb 4:12)!
The only reason to use the Bible in such a way is if you believe the message it itself teaches is irrelevant, outdated, inapplicable etc to modern people. If there are Pentecostal churches who believe and teach that, we must denounce them as false teachers!
Why? Because the Bible’s message is relevant to today, more than any other message! It is the only message by which people can be reconciled with God.
To go back to our thread subject, I think we should listen critically to a"boy who came back from heaven”. Until shown otherwise anyone could be a new prophet from God, even you or me. We are not to know the time or place or manner.
But Jesus promised that false prophets would come too. I know people who have had “prophets” barge uninvited into their houses spurt out some new prophecy and demand that they be listened to and obeyed! That is just so wrong. It is this uncritically accepting attitude towards prophecy which must change (something the Pentecostals usually share too fwiw.) That’s why I was wanting to know what the boy has been saying specifically… only once we know what he says can we decide whether to accept his message or not.
That’s why I was wanting to know what the boy has been saying specifically… only once we know what he says can we decide whether to accept his message or not.
I’d take a step back even from this and ask why he thinks he is qualified to say anything? I’m so tired of all the subjective, “I’ve had a vision” un-testable, unverifiable rubbish getting sold at Koorong these days. Walking through Koorong and other Christian bookstores today is a case of playing ‘spot the gospel’.
A book that teaches the Christian message and practice amongst today’s religious authors is indeed a rare find.
29"Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31"He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
Is this boy saying anything substantially more than that God, heaven, angels, and Jesus exist? We know all that already.
It does seem to me that he really has had a spiritual experience that has changed him profoundly.
But we need to remember that he is in a Christian family, (he and his dad were on the way home from church when the accident happened), and it seems reasonable to suppose he already had a saving faith and knowlege of God appropriate to his years (6 at the time). Therefore I reject Doug’s statement:
Elly Just goes to illustrate something that has always been a cornerstone of my faith. God has evolved the genes in humans which give us the capability and desire to seek God, ie God is within us and no need to believe solely in some ancient manuscript of man.
Has his testimony led others to come to faith? Perhaps, but it would have to be as an ‘alerter’ - something that prompts people to take God, Jesus and the Bible seriously.
“Just two months shy of his fourth birthday, Colton Burpo, the son of an evangelical pastor in Imperial, Neb., was rushed into emergency surgery with a burst appendix.”
Not the same as the previous one:
When Alex Malarkey was six years old he and Kevin (Dad) were involved in a car accident
You must remember that God moveth in mysterious ways His wonders to perform. The real humbling ‘miracle’ of this whole episode is that He chose to perform this ‘miracle’ on a young child encumbered with BURPO as a surname. Who’s pulling whose leg with this one ?
Mass merchants like Wal-Mart have pushed the book heavily in their stores, and large orders from churches and ministry groups are growing steadily.
“We all are perhaps desperate to know what is on the other side of the veil after we die,” Mr. Baugher ( VP of Thomas Nelson publisher ) said, adding that his initial skepticism about the Burpo family’s story was short-lived. “This was a very down-to-earth, conservative, quote-unquote normal Midwestern family. We became fully convinced that this story was valid. And also that it was a great story that would just take off.”
Book sales that would “JUST TAKE OFF” - now that’s a ( financial ) miracle in itself ;)
He woke up with an astonishing story: He had died and gone to heaven, where he met his great-grandfather; the biblical figure Samson; John the Baptist; and Jesus, who had eyes that “were just sort of a sea-blue and they seemed to sparkle,” Colton, now 11 years old, recalled.
Colton’s father, Todd, has turned the boy’s experience into a 163-page book, “Heaven Is for Real,” which has become a sleeper paperback hit of the winter, dominating best-seller lists and selling hundreds of thousands of copies.
Actually, I just started a conspiracy story that originally there were 164 pages submitted - but the final result was a 163 page tome. It seems that the missing ( final ) page contained only a few select words :
“As Colton opened his eyes he imagined he was like Dorothy in the final sequence from “The Wizard of Oz’ . Yes, it had all been just a dream.”
Yes, don’t bother reading the Bible. Don’t examine the evidence for the historical accuracy of scripture and the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Just go visit Koorong and spend $17.95 for the paperback - or $29.95 for the 4 disc CD read-aloud version. These books remind me of
2 Timothy 4:3 : For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
“Itching ears” ? People itching to find out….what exactly ? Booksellers itching to get into your wallet. Who would have guessed ? Why waste time on fiction books like these that masquerade as fact ? I guess all that I am saying is that it just doesn’t come up to scratch in my opinion.
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