The secular vs Christian perspective was fairly predictable, but I think showing a hardening of positions, with a significant number of people (in the comment thread, particularly) coming out and saying they think faith education should have no place in public schools.
I also thought it was interesting to note a couple of comments from an Islamic point of view:
JENNY BROCKIE: You mentioned we live in a multi faith society and we certainly do and Mazen, I’d like to involve you in the discussion here because you coordinate Islamic scripture in 300 schools in NSW. How do you feel about the idea of teaching ethics at the same time as those religious classes are offered?
MAZEN FAHME, ISLAMIC COUNCIL OF NSW: We don’t have a problem with ethics in general. Our concern is the process in which it was implemented. The other issue we have with ethics as well is that it does lack the substance in that with religion, it gives it extra dimension. As a religious person, when I was asked to serve someone or assist someone, I’m doing it for no gratitude in this world, I’m doing it for the pleasure of my creator and for reward in the afterlife. When you put that purely with no religion and just ethics then I don’t have to serve this person, I want the reward in this world and so forth. And the other issue that we have is that who is to, I suppose, say what ethics are common right now? Ethics can evolve over time.
and
JENNY BROCKIE: Kuranda, I know that you come from a Muslim background and have a 6-year-old son in Grade 1. What does he do at scripture time? Does he go to a Muslim class?
KURANDA SEYIT: No, he just goes to the library.
JENNY BROCKIE: Why?
KURANDA SEYIT: Because they don’t have the available Islamic scripture for him. Unfortunately, yeah, he has nothing to do, really, but to be in the library.
JENNY BROCKIE: Kuranda, what would you like your son to be doing in that time?
KURANDA SEYIT: Well, I think that it’s important, I think the majority of Muslims in Australia don’t go to private Islamic schools – there are only a handful of those. The majority go to public schools and for many families, the only opportunity for their children to have some type of religious instruction comes from that scripture opportunity, that one-hour a week or so and I think it’s important that they have that opportunity and I’d like to see my son be given that chance to be in scripture, learning values. I think one of the problems is that the term ‘ethics’ itself is problematic. By calling it ethics, it implies a lot of things. If we maybe gave children that did not go to scripture an alternative and didn’t call it ethics, it could simplify the problem and look at more Australian values and society per say rather than studying ethics because I realy don’t believe that young children under the age of 10 or 12 are ready to study, to be able to critically analyse ethics. It’s a very hard issue.
JENNY BROCKIE: A lot of hands going up there. Would you send your son to an ethics class if there was one available at the school?
KURANDA SEYIT: No. I study philosophy myself and I believe teaching them Western philosophy and ethics or ethics based on Western philosophy is very problematic for that age group and I would prefer them not to be exposed to that at that age level.
Yes it was a revealing insight into the topic - with quite a few unexpected points being made such as the ones you have highlighted above. The classic ones for us were the two kids ( 5-6 year old boy and his 7-8 year old sister ) who ‘articulated’ and ‘mirrored’ THEIR PARENTS’ “enlightened” new-age anti-Christian viewpoint so well. Talk about brainwashing at an early age - and it is these sort of parents who lampoon and accuse Christians of ‘brainwashing’ !
Just received this email from Youthworks with links to the programme etc :
SBS Insight - ‘Religion in the Classroom’
Check out the national television program ‘Insight’ SBS aired on Tuesday night. Called “Religious vs Ethics: Religion in the Classroom”, it can be viewed here.
Join the discussion on facebook or twitter and share your thoughts!
The classic ones for us were the two kids ( 5-6 year old boy and his 7-8 year old sister ) who ‘articulated’ and ‘mirrored’ THEIR PARENTS’ “enlightened” new-age anti-Christian viewpoint so well. Talk about brainwashing at an early age ... !
I was the opposite of those kids. Never went to SRE despite my parents wanting me to, instead opting to catch up / get ahead of homework, as well as play a bit of board games and chess.
Point is I saw a lot of my mates (90% of kids back in my school days) go into SRE and it helped them develop a real sense of right and wrong. Even if many of them aren’t fully committed Christians now; we’re not even talking about the ones who are churchgoers. So why fix what isn’t broken?
The classic ones for us were the two kids ( 5-6 year old boy and his 7-8 year old sister ) who ‘articulated’ and ‘mirrored’ THEIR PARENTS’ “enlightened” new-age anti-Christian viewpoint so well. Talk about brainwashing at an early age - and it is these sort of parents who lampoon and accuse Christians of ‘brainwashing’ !
The irony! But I suspect they (the parents, and others like them) truly are blind to their ...um…inconsistency.
Arthur, I wonder if your parents wanted you to go to SRE for religious or other reasons? ‘Values’ in education - even ‘Christian values’ - was in vogue not so long ago. Now, however, I think the tide has turned , perhaps partly because of the scandals, and the sexuality controversy, and the Leviticus stuff (sorcerors and shellfish). A long-term SRE teacher I was talking to the other day said that now, as not before, the parents are of an unchurched generation. Religious instruction is not on their wish-list for their kids, and she feels there is gathering opposition.
I’m dubious about the way SRE has been promoted (or perceived) from a ‘values’ point of view. I would like to see parents value religious instruction for its spiritual value - learning about God.
I eventually saw the “Insight “replay and as expected there was a lot of burecratic nonsense (as with Naplan business) which turned me off. The kids were a delight. Like watching todlers taking there first steps, the kids were trying to express opinions they didn’t even have for the first time. My criticism with some proponents of SRE is that they treat it like giving out the family hierlooms ie people must accept it and treasure it because of some intrinsic value. I was not brougbt up in a religious family and discovered and became a Christian because of what it is. You don’t need to apologise for it. You don’t need any sort of authority or exclusivity to present it to kids.
Arthur, I wonder if your parents wanted you to go to SRE for religious or other reasons?
My parents wanted me to have a sense of Christian values. This was back in the early 1990s.
I think the tide has turned, perhaps partly because of the scandals, and the sexuality controversy, and the Leviticus stuff (sorcerors and shellfish).
And yet from talking to representatives in the Board of Christian Education in the local area, attendance in SRE remained at approximately 90% throughout these last two decades until the ethics classes were trialled. The tide has only turned insofar that the (very small I believe) minority who are dead against religion and Christianity are becoming much more loud in their opinions.
Which brings me to Doug’s quote:
You don’t need any sort of authority or exclusivity to present it to kids.
Freedom of religion is well and good, however when the St James Ethics Centre deceptively started getting the State Government to present it as a replacement rather than an alternative, that’s when we need to take the fight to them.
So my four main arguments to preserve SRE as the default:
1. It presents a well-rounded set of values. (Some Christians will say that these values are tied to God, but some religions in SRE promote values independent of God e.g. Buddhism and even some aspects of Orthodox Christianity)
2. It never did us any harm - either those going to SRE or those not going to SRE. (It’s not like they openly taught the stuff that Ros alluded to earlier)
3. The St James Ethics Centre started this course upon deception. (Therefore, what is the course going to teach in that area given that the St James Ethics Centre started the course like that?)
4. The St James Ethics Centre along with others want the ethics classes to eventually replace SRE in full, thus denying the rest of us freedom of religion.
Sure, we should fight for SRE. I’ve signed a petition that ethics classes not be held at the same time as SRE. It was being promoted at church, but I’m not sure where it came from. I tried to find it on the SRE on Trial site, but couldn’t.
Why I am dubious about Protestant SRE being perceived / promoted / presented as being about values:
I think it’s important to present a singular focus, because that’s all most people are going to take in. And it’s important for that focus to be true to the core of Christian faith. Because Christianity is not about good behaviour, but about the grace of God in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you promote values but teach faith, it could look like bait and switch; if you focus teaching on values, your’re not being Biblically faithful. (Aside: I found the scripture lesson portrayed in the program disappointing in this regard. From the prodigal son story, moving on to a morality lesson. Hmm.) I know that the values grow out of faith. I’m not suggesting ‘teach faith, not values’. I’m talking about primary focus and perceptions here, that there not be a disconnect between parents expectations and what is delivered. I do wonder if allowing expectations to settle on values - because that seemed to be working well for us - actually has facilitated this switch to ethics classes. So, I think SRE should be presented as about God, or about faith, or about spirituality if you like. (I don’t know how to integrate this argument with what might be taught in Buddhist SRE, for example.)
Glad to hear participation rates have held well, I am quite likely being too pessimistic. However, I wouldn’t just dismiss coal-face reports of parental attitudes. Statistics are likely to lag behind changing attitudes. I’m reserving judgment on this though, because of my tiny anecdotal sample.
My point about the controversy stuff was that anti-Christian people use it as mud to discredit Christianity as a whole, therefore (they imply) how can you trust its values or anything else? But a more weighty issue is probably the unchurched generation, who are more likely to see Christianity as irrelevant.
This ethics class has been started blatantly flouting the existing legislation! But it’s considered bad PR to take this to court (as well as the legislation is so old it might not hold). This bothers me.
There are a bunch of articles on Sydney Anglicans discussing all this at length, including some outside perspectives, for anyone who hasn’t seen them:
I talked to several Christian and non-Christian parents, who brought their kids to this camp. It surprised me to see some of the non-Christian parents voluntarily talk about how good the SRE classes were for their kids, and express their worry about the ethics classes as the kids could potentially come to any conclusion they wanted no matter how flawed. No non-Christian parent there talked against SRE. All this was done without any prompting by me.
Disclaimer: These were largely ethnic parents though.
Yes, ‘ethnic’ people seem more positive about things of God than Anglos.
What is sad for people like me (6th Generation Australian, Anglo-Irish protestant origin), is seeing a decline and disinterest in God in our ethno-sphere. (That’s a bit off-topic)
A new SRE article from Newcastle:
Too few volunteers to teach scripture
BY ALISON BRANLEY
16 Jul, 2010 04:00 AM
The head of Catholic Church scripture teachers in the Hunter said the real threat to special religious education in state schools was not ethics classes but a lack of teachers.
Maitland Newcastle Diocese children’s ministries director John Donnelly said there were more than 12,800 catholic students in diocesan state schools in 2009 but only 184 scripture teachers.
Hunter-wide the number of students who ‘‘opted out’’ of scripture was about 5per cent.
Writing in the most recent edition of the Catholic newsletter Aurora Mr Donnelly said if ethics classes were rolled out statewide proponents may face the same problems as the church with volunteers.
‘‘The real challenge to our right to teach our faith is finding volunteers willing to present the weekly lessons,’’ he said.
‘‘While most state primary schools are currently receiving some form of [special religious education], many secondary schools receive little or none.
‘‘In many schools Christian churches have pooled their resources to provide joint denomination [special religious education] lessons.’’
It comes as Greens MP John Kaye entered the debate about a consortium of ‘‘aggressively evangelising churches’’, Christian churches paying for a purpose-built scripture room at Warners Bay High.
Mr Kaye said it violated the spirit of the Education Act and its commitment to secular schools.
‘‘The Warners Bay Christian Education Association has effectively annexed land at the high school for a chapel,’’ he said.
‘‘The local Christian churches have been handed a beachhead in a public high school to launch a recruiting campaign.’’
The board includes Baptist, Pentecostal and Assemblies of God Churches some with affiliations to the Hillsong Church.
Students enjoy classes when provided
Scripture teachers need not worry about competition from ethics classes if the attitudes of Hunter high school students are a suitable gauge.
The Newcastle Herald canvassed a selection of high school students yesterday about their views on special religious education classes.
Most said they enjoyed the classes, but said they were only offered weekly in year 7 and up to year 10 intermittently.
It is understood a number of high schools such as West Wallsend High, Warners Bay High and Callaghan College Wallsend Campus schedule scripture as the last class of the day and many students ‘‘opt-out’’ in favour of an early mark.
Dungog High students Andrew Easdown, Ben Richards, Laura Harvey and James Crozier said about five out of 120 in their year used to opt-out.
‘‘Our teacher used to do stuff to make it fun for us,’’ Ben said.
Newcastle High student Wade Matthews, 17, said he remembered their scripture teacher was ‘‘heaps nice’’.
Irrawang High student Emma Thompson said scripture was popular.
When I did the mandatory training in SRE to be an approved Scripture Teacher for NSW I learnt a few things. Like the fact that during the battle for SRE, the Christian proponents made the legislation so supportive of a multicultural Australia that they couldn’t reject it on discrimination grounds. So as a Scripture teacher I was not there to teach ‘about’ Christianity, as a State funded teacher might, but how to live as faithful Christians. And to keep the legislation and right to do so we should also fight for the right of Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, and other faiths to teach their faiths at the same time, extending the family’s cultural links into the school and linking it with the kid’s own community.
The battle for keeping SRE can be fought that way. I’m not sure if there is any other way to protect it.
Queensland parent Ron Williams is organising a High Court constitutional challenge to the chaplaincy program, and top-flight Sydney barrister Bret Walker, SC, has agreed to take the case. The constitution prevents any law being passed that provides ‘‘for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance’‘
I wonder how seriously this should be taken. A lot of the secondary schools in my area have a Christian worker at least on a part time basis. Not sure what their funding mix is - at least some I think is from independent donation. And I’m not sure what qualifies to be called a ‘chaplain’ exactly.
The issues people have seem to have are
*Use of public funds
*Chaplains where there should be qualified counsellors
*Anger at proselytisation
Whereas the constitutional challenge relates to imposing religion
Full article:
Chaplains in schools challenged Michael Bachelard
September 5, 2010
AUSTRALIA’S school chaplaincy program will soon face a constitutional challenge in the High Court as opposition grows to having government funding paying for God’s representatives in state schools.
With both sides of politics pledging $220 million to fund an extra 1000 chaplains, the Australian Psychological Society has slammed the program as ‘‘dangerous’’ to children’s mental health.
Meanwhile, some of the country’s richest private schools have taken $60,000 of taxpayers’ money to subsidise their existing chaplains. Xavier College, Brighton Grammar and Presbyterian Ladies College are among the elite schools awarded funds from the public purse.
At least one poorer school in Tasmania, on the other hand, replaced a qualified psychologist with a chaplain because it was cheaper.
The Australian Council of State School Organisations called chaplaincy ‘‘the wrong response and for the wrong reasons’‘.
Chaplaincy organisations rejected these criticisms, saying parents and principals welcomed chaplains, seeing them as a valuable adjunct to other welfare services at schools.
Queensland parent Ron Williams is organising a High Court constitutional challenge to the chaplaincy program, and top-flight Sydney barrister Bret Walker, SC, has agreed to take the case. The constitution prevents any law being passed that provides ‘‘for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance’‘.
Mr Williams said that while the rules of the program prohibited chaplains from proselytising, the Queensland provider, the biblical literalist Scripture Union, has as its aim ‘‘to encourage people of all ages to meet God daily through the Bible and prayer’‘.
’‘It’s absolutely, totally out of control here. You can’t prevent your children being exposed to chaplaincy,’’ Mr Williams said.
In Victoria, state school chaplains are employed by ACCESS Ministries, the same group that provides non-compulsory religious education. Chaplains in Victoria are better qualified than in other states, and are required to have at least one degree in teaching, theology or counselling, as well as further training in another of those fields.
ACCESS Ministries chief executive Evonne Paddison said that children would rather go to chaplains than to other professions because they were ‘‘independent, significant adults’’ who were around full-time at schools rather than for the ‘‘clinical hour’’ of visiting psychologists. Chaplains picked up what other professionals might miss, she said, then referred them on.
But Psychological Society spokeswoman Monica Thielking pointed to a recent ACCESS publication that quoted one school chaplain saying: ‘‘At the moment … I’ve got two grade 5 kids on suicide watch.’‘
She said chaplains were not qualified to deal with such sensitive issues, and when they tried to, it was ‘‘dangerous professional behaviour’‘.
Dr Thielking said early-intervention programs for children’s mental health were too scarce because of lack of money, and the government was wasting money on chaplaincy.
Victorian Principals Association president Gabrielle Leigh agreed that money for welfare was scarce. But she said that where chaplains existed, school communities had found it to be positive and ‘‘another dimension’’ to the services in the school.
Balwyn High School chaplain Roy Hamer, an Anglican minister and former bank manager, said his conversations with students were all about how they were going, and rarely about God. ‘‘I see myself as a friend, someone they can talk to like they do with their own friend,’’ he said.
And he was well aware of the danger of straying outside his expertise. ‘‘If I’m talking to a kid and I know that this conversation needs to go to the next level, we’ve unearthed some really deep stuff … that’s where I try to end it and say ‘Let’s talk to the psychologist.’‘’
In Tasmania, Australian Psychological Association state chair Darren Stops said he was aware of one psychologist who was replaced by a chaplain ‘‘working as a full-time student counsellor’’ when she left her school.
Of the 467 independent schools nationally that were funded under the first three years of the $163 million program, most were low-fee Christian schools. But others are high-fee private schools. Xavier College in Kew, for example, has taken $60,000 from the government to subsidise its Centre for Faith and Service.
COMPASS on Sunday night looks at teaching ethics and scripture :
COMPASS Sunday 12 September 10pm ABC TV 1
Schools of Thought :
Should ethics be offered to school students as an alternative to Religious Instruction or Scripture Classes? When public schools offer scripture classes students who opt out may sit idle. Should those children be offered a secular alternative? The issue has come to a head in NSW where the Education Minister has been presented with a proposal by the St James Ethics Centre to trial an ethics-based complement to scripture in ten NSW primary schools. Compass examines the debate about religious education, by turning up for class for the NSW pilot ethics program. Compass also visits schools, one public and one faith-based, in other states where the study of ethics and philosophy are already on offer.
An ‘SRE Celebration Event’ will be held at NSW Parliament House about two weeks from now, with registration closing mid next week. Representatives include Youthworks, funnily enough NSW Education Minister Verity Firth and the Shadow Education Minister amongst various members.
I intend to go. (Should I heckle Verity Firth when she starts speaking?) If anyone wants to join they’re more than free to. But anticipate that most people are working during the late afternoon when it’s held.
Details
Date: Tuesday 21 September, 2010
Time: 4.30pm to 6.00pm
Venue: William Wilkins Gallery, NSW Department of Education and Training, 35 Bridge Street Sydney
RSVP by Thursday 16 September to Sue Sneddon
(02) 4979 1328 or (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
[ Edited: 10 September 2010 07:33 PM by Arthur Lee]
- The speakers most passionate about defending SRE were the Catholic (George Pell), Jewish and NSW Council of Churches (basically Uniting) representatives, as well as obviously Youthworks.
- Other speakers such as the Anglican, Muslim and non-denominational Christian organisations also defended SRE but didn’t get the biggest applause.
- Verity Firth is an atheist, not mentioning God or gods at all when relaying her upbringing and beliefs. She is an absolute hypocrite and disgrace to SRE when promising that SRE would stay in its current form.
- I booed Verity Firth quite loudly, but was disappointed that no-one else did. At least I refrained from vocalising abusive epithets. To be honest, Verity Firth lost my respect quite some time ago.
- The MC promised “war” if Verity Firth did not meet her promises. Fortunately, Verity Firth doesn’t even need to meet her promises as they will lose the March 2011 election.
- NSW Liberals weren’t much better, declining to speak due to ministerial responsibilities but not even sending a non-ministerial representative to the function.
Nile ties his vote to change in ethics class timetable
Sean Nicholls SMH July 20, 2011
ETHICS classes in schools would be rescheduled so they did not compete with special religious education classes under a deal the Christian Democratic Party MP, Fred Nile, says he is confident of striking with the Premier. But supporters of the classes have branded any such change a ‘‘sleight of hand’’ that would undermine the reason for their creation.
Mr Nile, whose party shares the balance of power in the upper house, has threatened to use his vote to ‘‘torpedo’’ key parts of the O’Farrell government’s legislative agenda, including its overhaul of public sector wages, if it does not consider removing the classes from schools.
The classes were introduced into primary schools this year as an alternative to special religious education, or scripture, but are opposed by some church groups, who claim they disadvantage scripture students as they are held simultaneously. Under the former education department policy, students who did not attend special religious education classes were left to read or watch videos.
Mr Nile told the Herald that he discussed the issue with ‘‘senior government representatives’’ yesterday and was ‘‘offered’’ a meeting with Barry O’Farrell after he returns from China at the end of this week. He said he would ask the Premier for a commitment that the classes would not continue next year but failing that would be ‘‘happy for them to be held at any time except in competition with scripture’‘.
Mr Nile said he emerged from the discussions ‘‘confident’’ of reaching an agreement. ‘‘There are some signals I have received today,’’ he said, but would not elaborate. Dr Simon Longstaff, the executive director of the St James Ethics Centre, which provides course material for the classes, criticised the proposal as ‘‘a sleight of hand’’ that would undermine the reason they were created.
’‘The reason why classes were introduced in the first place was to give [students] who weren’t attending special religious education classes something meaningful,’’ he said. ‘‘Trying to retain ethics classes but at a different time would simply leave those children back in the difficult position that existed before the change.’‘
The Greens MP John Kaye said if Mr O’Farrell agreed to the change he would be breaking his election promise not to repeal legislation because the act specifies ethics classes must be offered as an ‘‘alternative’’ to scripture.
The acting Premier, Andrew Stoner, had earlier ruled out removing ethics classes but signalled the government’s willingness to negotiate. ‘‘If [Mr Nile] wants to see some improvements to ethics classes we’re happy to talk to him about that.’’ A spokesman for Mr Stoner said last night that the government would ‘‘not be making any policy changes on the run’‘. Any changes would need to be considered by cabinet.
The acting opposition education spokesman, Nathan Rees, said Mr O’Farrell needed to make it clear to the crossbench that ‘‘classrooms of NSW are not a social laboratory for fringe political groups’‘.
As many in the media and elsewhere have asked today, what is the Christian ethical stand on blackmail ? Fred Nile’s number of remaining supporters must be diminishing rapidly.
I’d agree Kevin. Having sat through the history of Scripture teachers in NSW, one of the things that really struck me was the original legislation was designed to be *so* inclusive that no member of parliament could object on grounds of discrimination. Buddhist, Moslem, Christian, it’s all good because it’s all in the legislation; it’s a link between the home belief systems and the school. Ethics is just another version of what parents in the home would like to see happen in school.
I wonder what those Christians who fought for our right to teach Scripture in the first place would make of this kind of discriminatory approach to policy; and whether they would fear the backlash they themselves fought so hard to prevent.
....Victoria announced it had joined a Queensland father in challenging the constitutional validity of the national school chaplaincy program, arguing the scheme is beyond the federal government’s powers.
New South Wales and Western Australia are also intervening in the case, brought by Ron Williams, which will be heard in the High Court next month.
Victorian Attorney-General Robert Clark said the state’s concern was not with the chaplaincy program but with the federal government exceeding its powers. ‘‘The Victorian government believes the Commonwealth government does not have the power to enter a direct funding arrangement with a provider of services such as school chaplaincy services,’’ he said.
‘‘Any such services should be provided in the normal way via a grants arrangement negotiated with the states.’‘
Legal observers believe the case is a test of the ability of the federal government to use its financial muscle to bypass the states and directly fund programs in areas that have been considered state responsibilities.
Meanwhile, the Victorian Education Department said its investigation into proselytising in religious instruction classes would be completed by October.
What is proselytising exactly ? I mean, what kind of activity would be seen as proselytising? And I’m not sure what chaplains are exactly supposed to do if they don’t teach scripture and are not qualified to counsel.
The Victorian program is supposed to be teaching “about” Scripture, which is what happens in NSW state classrooms. We teach Year 3 Religion in Society, and my girls did assignments and excursions “about” Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism.
So with this already occurring in NSW education classroom, our Scripture legislation encourages SRE teachers to help kids follow Christ (or Buddha, or Mohammed). It’s about how to be Christian, to live it and follow it. It’s the home life visiting the classroom, and integrating the home culture into the school room for at least half an hour a week.
Victoria’s paranoia over this can only come from having a Bill of Rights they are worried about! (Ironically that’s how praying in American schools was also banned).
Ethics classes objections remain but AEC will not seek to overturn legislation
Fred Nile is a bit embarrassing. There is a new, younger CDP member, I wonder what he is like? I like the idea of having an explicitly ‘Christian’ MLC voice - that in itself makes a statement. But I would prefer a more credible version of that statement.
THE leading opponent to the introduction of ethics classes in NSW schools, the Anglican Church, has reversed its position and says they should be retained, while the Catholic Church now argues they should not be removed as they have ‘‘little impact’’ on the teaching of scripture.
The reversals come amid a stand-off over the classes between the O’Farrell government and the Christian Democratic Party MP, Fred Nile, who has threatened to block key legislation in the upper house if it does not consider removing them from schools.
The comments will be welcomed by the government, which yesterday rejected Mr Nile’s proposal that the classes be moved from being in competition with special religious education (SRE), or scripture, lessons.
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The acting Premier, Andrew Stoner, said the proposal was ‘‘problematic and very unlikely to find support’’ from the government.
Bryan Cowling from the Anglican Education Commission, the church’s peak education body in the Sydney diocese, told the Herald the church had consulted with the O’Farrell government. ‘‘Once the thing had gone through we saw that as the reality and we need to make sure we work within it,’’ he said.
’‘I’m comfortable with the current arrangements and so is the Anglican Church.’‘
Dr Cowling said there had been a fear among religious providers before the classes were introduced that they might be a vehicle of getting rid of special religious education altogether.
’‘I’ve seen the curriculum, which none of the churches had seen before the legislation went through and, having seen the curriculum, it’s nothing to be frightened of,’’ he said. ‘‘It’s good educational stuff.
’‘We’ve got no evidence that introducing the ethics classes has done anything to reduce the number of SRE classes.’‘
But Dr Cowling said removing the classes would be ‘‘undemocratic’’ and Mr Nile’s proposal risked throwing the whole area into turmoil, so ‘‘ultimately [that] could mean SRE could disappear altogether,’’ he said. ‘‘I don’t think his position can be defended on the basis of fairness.’‘
Jude Hennessy, the spokesman for the Catholic Conference of Religious Education in State Schools, said the church had also dropped its opposition to the classes. Mr Hennessy said while Mr Nile’s move to have the classes removed from schools was ‘‘no doubt an expression of his strong support’’ for scripture, ‘‘the implementation of ethics classes has progressed too far to warrant this action’‘.
He said the debate had prompted an increase in the number of volunteer scripture teachers, while there had been limited take-up of ethics classes, which are running in 128 primary schools with 180 teachers: ‘‘The implementation of ethics classes in a limited number of school communities has had little impact on the teaching of SRE.’‘
Last night Mr Nile expressed surprise and disagreed with the view that ethics classes had not affected scripture lessons. ‘‘I’ve been getting information from the grassroots in schools saying [ethics] is having an effect.’‘
He told the Herald he understood that Mr Stoner did not want to announce changes to government policy while the Premier, Barry O’Farrell, was in China and looked forward to his meeting with him next week.
When ethics classes were introduced at Hilltop Road Public School in Merrylands last term, its Catholic scripture alternative lost one student. But Charlie Gregory, 10, who said the classes were more fun than scripture, also had some other reasons.
’‘My dad’s the teacher,’’ he said.
My opinion probably differs from the rest of youse so I’ll say it upfront - about the Anglican and Catholic representatives that is…
Cowards.
Don’t think there’s much wrong about negotiating a political position either. I didn’t think Fred Nile to be deceptive at all on the matter above.
Resorting to name calling ( “cowards” ) hardly advances your position much. Just because someone decides differently to you does not justify such language.
Nor does Fred Nile escape attention with his disguising of “blackmail” as “negotiation”. His position just reinforces what I (and many other Christians) have thought of his grandstanding ‘moral high ground’ in recent years. I guess for him, there and ethics - and then of course there is HIS interpretation of ethics. And we all know which one Fred thinks is the ONLY one to adhere too.
Kevin,
it’s just so weird when you and I agree — on Fred — on Nukes — so ... you could come on over to the dark side and just adopt the rest of the Lankshear Manifesto! ;-)
Dave, it really is amazing - maybe we were conjoined twins at birth. But remember this - it is not I who is agreeing with you. It is you who is agreeing with me.
At least you’re honest enough to admit that your’s is the dark side ;)
Have just got home from a friend’s birthday party - so now it’s time to settle down and cheer Cadel Evans on to victory in the Tour de France !
( Regarding fora discussions, we live to fight another day. )
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[null]Political Geography: MinnesotaNew York Times (blog)[{}]The area, dotted with megachurches, is predominately exurban and has a significant evangelical community. It is probably the most reliably Republican of all Minnesota's congressional districts. The Second Congressional District, is comprised of seven ...
[null]Political Geography: ColoradoNew York Times (blog)[{}]This is the heartland of Colorado's evangelical community. Focus on the Family is based here. In 2008, among the state's most heavily populated counties, Mike Huckabee did best in El Paso County and, to the south, Pueblo County.and more»
Political Geography: Colorado New York Times (blog) This is the heartland of Colorado's evangelical community. Focus on the Family is based here. In 2008, among the state's most heavily populated counties, Mike Huckabee did best in El Paso County and, to the south, Pueblo County.
[null]How Bob Crow became the voice of reasonTelegraph.co.uk (blog)[{}]Or the similarly "independent" inquiry into euthanasia that was funded by two of its leading advocates (Bernard Lewis and Sir Terry Pratchett) and chaired by a third (Lord Falconer), yet generally reported as an unbiased study.
How Bob Crow became the voice of reason Telegraph.co.uk (blog) Or the similarly "independent" inquiry into euthanasia that was funded by two of its leading advocates (Bernard Lewis and Sir Terry Pratchett) and chaired by a third (Lord Falconer), yet generally reported as an unbiased study.
[null]Heavy lies the head with Kevin in townThe Australian[{}]Her rallying call set off a fleeting vibe of bipartisanship at St Paul's Anglican Church in Manuka yesterday, but the spirit did not last beyond the return ComCar journey to The Hill. "Make my day," Dirty Tony told his colleagues in their partyroom ...
[null]Hating bankers a global sportThe Australian[{}]Such rare political consensus on who to blame was sanctified by Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who in his Christmas Day sermon denounced "financial speculation" for the disintegration of British society. Along with a formidable cast of ...
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