mightychurch.com

This lines comes up a lot from Christians in atheism discussions, and it’s used as something of a trump card, but when you analyze it, it’s actually (imo) pretty weak.

That said, I’d be interested to hear what you guys think of “absolute” morality - what does it mean to you?

In the recent Sydney Anglicans thread   atheism_and_cyber_abuse  (which I suppose you’ve been following, Luke), David McKay wrote (post # 57)

I’m interested to know if any of our forum members have read Naked God?

In this new Matthias book, promoted as the 21st century’s A Fresh Start, Martin Ayers argues that most people live as if there were a God, because they live as if their lives have a purpose and as if there were such a thing as right and wrong.

He says that if we are random products of evolution [without a loving, wise creator in control of that process], life must be meaningless and there is no right or wrong.

I pretty much agree with that. 
 
The thread later turned to a discussion of whether any particular actions are universally good or evil.  But that is a different thing to the question of whether there is such a thing as right and wrong.  This is an important distinction.
 
I take ‘absolute morality’ (for want of a better term) to mean that good and evil exist as meaningful attributes, not that any particular actions might be considered universally good or evil.

Absolute morality is good to pull people away from universally deviant behaviours like illicit drugtaking and binge drinking, but for not much else.

You ultimately need Jesus to distinguish between Christianity and Atheism.

So Arthur, you understand ‘absolute morality’ in a different sense to me.
I don’t think Luke has said what he understands by the term.  Luke?

Ros,  you’re ‘absolutely’ on the ball ;)

“Absolute Morality”—I think Luke might be doing a bit of stirring here. I have a different take on it to Ros and Arthur.
  Nothing gets me more stirred up than terms like literal, absolute and inerrant. I think everyone has at some time in their lives wanted to have things all laid out in written rules for everyone to follow and peace and quiet would reign supreme. We are not children forever.
  The problem IMO is how we conceive GOd. Most people believe in evolution as well as God, but there seems to be a gap in tying the two together.Our God given brains tell us how we were created by God using evolution, IE when anything, whether a Xmas Pudding or a moon lander is created, there is a lot of trial and error and accidents involved before and after creation.
  Nothing annoys me more than a creationist preacher ( probably a layman) who proclaims ” I do not believe that I am the product of an accident or random mutation” This seems to me to be people creating God in their image in return for God creating them in “His ” image.A woeful interpretation imo.    So my point is that in GOds world nothing is absolute. Each of us has a path to follow. It may be narrow but it is not absolute.

Doug, isn’t the reverse also the case? That someone who says “I believe that I am the product of an accident or random mutation” is creating God in their image too?

Now as to this topic… are we talking about absolute morality, or universal morality?

Absolute morality is necessitated by the existence of an unchanging God.

Universal morality can be a good argument for the continuing importance of morality, and thereby God as the source of it. But it’s not perfect, as unfortunately there are some people who seem to have widely different morals than the majority. As much as we would like to think that paedophilia (for example) is universally condemned, there are a handful in our society who completely approve of it. There is no part of us which has not been corrupted by sin, even the most core parts of our sense of morality.

Dannii   The difference is that “creation” is an absolute term used in the Creationist mode. Things just appeared on Gods’ order. Random mutation or “accident” is just an example of how God may have created. There could be many other ways beyond our comprehension.