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Some questions to ponder:

* Is suffering part of God’s plan for the Christian, when it happens today?
..and..
* Is it ever God’s will that His beloved (in the world today - people just like US) should suffer?

I’d like to hear Bible-based thoughts on this (apart from my ideas). The reason being..

..A Christian brother in my age bracket who goes to a very different kind of church from either of mine..
(my churches being
- AM Sydney Anglican;
- PM interdenominational Chinese church with Presbyterian & Baptist roots)
..recently sent my sister [blood relative not just Christian sister] a message with the following ideas:

{When God doesn’t heal..?}

So what to do with the un-healed wounds? Well, do as Jesus did, “endure” it, rather than take “joy” in it.. knowing it is NOT His will for you..

He has answers for you.. and that either means striking out n perservering in the same prayer n not giving up..  perhaps that takes little change of environment, or different answers re: “renewing of your mind”..

..a theology which suggests that .. suffering is part of God’s plan is wrong..
..

“Because Jesus ENDURED the Cross (Heb 12:2), He didn’t take pleasure in it (SO NEITHER SHOULD WE) - God is not a cosmic killjoy - it was the ONLY WAY.

..Suffering exists in the world, not because God desires it for us, but because it exists as a result of sin in the world from the Fall.

..God desires us not to suffer: if Hitler had been sent for our own good, then you have the Father’s will desiring for our destruction, and Jesus cleaning up and acting in the opposite way.. but Jesus is perfect theology - He is the exact representation of the Father and the Father’s will - and God is not a schizophrenic by all means - God is good, ALL the time..!!

To me it seems like my Christian brother is saying,
“God’s plan for us is NOT to suffer;
God’s will for us is NOT to suffer..”

I could be reading it wrong, & maybe also he worded this badly.. .. ..

IF, however, that is what he is saying, then my personal feeling - based on the calling of Paul the apostle as recorded in the book of ACTS - is that I disagree with such ideas.
~

Reasons for disagreeing with this notion
that suffering is NOT part of God’s plan for us:

Reason 1
In ACTS ch. 9 - verses 11 to 16 -  Saul of Tarsus has been blinded while on the warpath against Jesus’ followers.

God directs Ananias to Saul, revealing to Ananias what He has got planned for Saul:

”This man is my chosen instrument
to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings
and before the people of Israel.
I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.””
(vv.15-16)

It seems rather obvious to me that God intended Saul/Paul to suffer, in his lifetime.

That it was, ahem, God’s will for Paul to suffer.
~

Reason 2
Gallop forward through Paul’s history to ACTS ch. 20 - verses 17 to 31 -  where Paul has gathered the leaders of the Ephesians church.

He himself says:

”And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem,
not knowing what will happen to me there.
I only know that in every city
the Holy Spirit warns me
that prison and hardships are facing me.”
(vv.22-23)

What??

God the Spirit has warned Paul to EXPECT imprisonment?

And hardships too?

Sounds like suffering to me.
~

Reason 3
Peter, friend/follower/apostle of Christ, says in the 4th chapter of his first letter:

”So then, those who suffer according to God’s will
should commit themselves to their faithful Creator
and continue to do good.”
(v.19)

Actually, ALL of that section in 1 Peter 4 is good to read & think through..
~

So, do passages like these say,
“YES, it may be part of God’s plan for you to suffer”?

Am I wrong, if I dare to say that according to the words of Paul & Peter
- Jesus’ own apostles -
that in fact it may be God’s will (sometimes) that we suffer?

TZ.

P.S. I do not want to sound glib here.
I realise that there are people reading this who are suffering terribly right now - whether that be physical, emotional, mental or other suffering.
(I myself have suffered greatly on an emotional level in recent years.)

The passages I’ve tried to quote are actually what the Bible says. I could be interpreting them wrongly, after all..

Hi Tia,
 
edit:
I think you’re right to be concerned about this sort of teaching.  There is a lot of confusion about where God is in suffering, and it’s potentially damaging.  The following are the scriptures that came to my mind.  I hope you find some of them helpful.
Ros.
How about:
John 12:24-26

John 12:24-26 (New International Version)
24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

Matthew 16:24-25
 

Matthew 16:24-25 (New International Version)

24Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

John 15:18-21
 

John 15:18-21 (New International Version)

The World Hates the Disciples
18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’[a] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.

Hebrews 11:35b-39

Hebrews 11:35-39 (New International Version)
35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[a]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.

Hebrews 12:7-13

Hebrews 12:7-13 (New International Version)

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

12Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. 13"Make level paths for your feet,”[a] so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

1 Peter 1:6-7

1 Peter 1:6-7 (New International Version)
6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

1 Peter 2:19-21

1 Peter 2:19-21 (New International Version)
19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Edit: the bible gateway links don’t seem to be working.

Tia

I think we need to distinguish somewhat between different types of suffering:

* suffering which God brings to us in order to teach us to persevere and to rely on Him more;

* suffering which other people inflict on us.  Even if we take the view that God is sovereign over this (see previous point), I do think it is right to say that God wants to heal and restore and doesn’t want us to be captive to / damaged by that behaviour indefinitely or forever.  There is plenty of biblical teaching on the fact that God is for us, not against us, that supports this (eg Romans 8:31-32; Psalm 103, 2 Corinthians 1:3, Matthew 11:28-29, John 14:16, Ephesians 2:14-16 to name but a few).

So, as I see it, the teaching your sister received confuses two issues - does God sometimes will us to suffer? (A: yes). Does God want us to be damaged “inside” by such events (eg by carrying “unhealed wounds”? (A: No).

I do see your verses David regarding how God is for us not against us.  But I don’t see that in my experiences, or in some places in the Old Testament e.g. 1 Samuel 8. 

I’m almost of the other extreme to Tia’s Christian brother.  I have no qualms regarding God’s all-powerful properties (see other threads created by Luke) but sometimes think that He is a bit of a killjoy.

Hi there,

Thank you for your comments!

Two other references from His Word that God has pointed out to me since yesterday AM were:

~ REV. chapter 2, from verse 10
“Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days..”

~ JOHN. chapter 16, from verse 333
“..In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Arthur Lee - 21 February 2010 06:33 PM

I do see your verses David regarding how God is for us not against us.  But I don’t see that in my experiences, or in some places in the Old Testament e.g. 1 Samuel 8.

Apologies for sounding a bit thick (tired & got casual teaching next 2 days), but Arthur, would you be willing to elaborate more on what you just said? Not sure I understood.

Sorry..!

TZ.

Hi Tia,
   
Thinking from a pastoral point of view, rather than a purely doctrinal one, what one would say has to depend on the situation of the person or persons involved.  Is the main need to straighten up doctrine, so someone doesn’t get blown off course, or is it to address someone’s pain, or is it something else? (rhetorical questions).
 
Someone in pain needs to know that God’s love and care for them has not stopped, that God has not forsaken them, to be encouraged to look to God and trust him.
 
I suppose in that situation someone might be susceptible to messages that suffering is not God’s will, that God’s will is for them to be healed and happy in this life.  This may set them up for a really big let-down later, if all does not turn up roses. 
   
However, the message ‘suffering might be God’s will for you’ will probably not be helpful to someone really down.  It may sound like ‘God hates you’.
   
Better to encourage someone to be steeped in God’s word, and his love which is better than life.

Psalm 63
A psalm of David. When he was in the Desert of Judah.
1 O God, you are my God,
    earnestly I seek you;
    my soul thirsts for you,
    my body longs for you,
    in a dry and weary land
    where there is no water.
2 I have seen you in the sanctuary
    and beheld your power and your glory.

3 Because your love is better than life,
    my lips will glorify you.
   

Tia Zheng - 21 February 2010 08:54 PM

Apologies for sounding a bit thick (tired & got casual teaching next 2 days), but Arthur, would you be willing to elaborate more on what you just said? Not sure I understood.

Thank you for quoting verses Tia, but I feel that they are far more applicable to those suffering as a direct result of their Christian faith.

My circumstances are simply being in the crossfire of the world’s troubles and tribulations i.e. there’s nothing distinctly anti-Christian about the circumstances surrounding my suffering. 

It’s a combo of continued unemployment, involuntary singleness and the lack of care/compassion from three groups of friends (not my closest circle).  What makes the last one hard to cop is that two of those groups have some-to-mainly professing & church-going Christian friends in it.

Although I know from other people’s life experiences that only one of those things needs to be better and the others often follow from it (ala some OT prophets’ experiences).

Good points Ros.

No, I don’t think suffering is part of Gods plan. It seems that this proposition only occurs if you are a “creationist”. If you accept that God created everything by evolution, which is still proceeding, then “suffering” is just part of the process. What more can I say.