mightychurch.com

Owen said:

For example; in Oz, it is possible to map out where the hot spots for Aboriginal disadvantageare going to be. Just get a map of where the missions were. In those places you usually have terrible disadvantage and cultural breakdown. This is important. The function of many missions was the deliberate destruction of indigenous culture. The remnant group is usually divorced from their culture (most anglo-whites have very little understanding of the impact of a loss of culture

In the Northern Territory, up near the Roper River in the early 1900’s, settlers were shooting natives on sight. There was a cull going on. Many white Australians thought natives were useless and no more than fauna.
The CMS missionary service stepped in and founded a mission which provided sanctuary and help to these people. They flocked in for their own good, and were grateful for the help and their lives.
Missionaries were kind and patient. The general population were not, and many are still not.

The ‘stolen generation’ were usually saved from a dangerous home life in many cases. Some church missionaries did things which proved wrong in hindsight. But it is no excuse for native Australians to depend on help whilst at the same time engage in negative lifestyles.

It doesnt mean that aboriginal culture should disappear, but certain negative parts of the culture should go. Drunkenness for one, child and wife abuse for another. These are parts of the aboriginal ‘culture’  that should go.

Some parts of culture are good, some are a hindrance to progress. Aboriginals cannot continue to live in another culture using stone age thinking, and try to live in the new world. Muslims cannot live in our culture acting out a medieval culture mindset. These are only two examples. Their are some good things about cultures, and the bad parts should be left behind.

Owen, I think that you see things from a left wing, liberal point of view. That view also has good aspects, but many aspects which are failures. You appear to be viewing society from a socialist point of view. Be careful to not let your political views, which align with many others of you ilk, cloud your vision and the problem solving side.
I think that there are many social problems out there which are not being solved by persisting with the tired old failed methods.

OA re #22 I think that you are somewhere near the mark without hitting it. It is natural( ie God planned it that way) for the haves and have-nots to be in balance. Human interference wants all races to be equalfor some usually religious idealistic notion. 
  The Nazis were right on this one though. There is a genetic and memetic difference between races. Just like when you you want our domestic animals to be fatter or more amenable, it doesn’t happen overnight. It takes careful breeding. This you cannot do overtly with humans.
    The only solution is for time to take its course, and it can be a very long time. With Aborigines, they have been separated from the developing , murdering races of Europe and Asia for so long that their genetic and memetic makeup is different. I particularly remember an Aborigine in my 5th grade class at South Townsville many years ago.Like me (I was a new boy just arrived from elsewhere) , he was a bit of a loner. I remember the vacant, distant look when in class. His ancestors for 40,000 years killed many kangaroos and they had their bit of violence, but nothing like our European ancestors.
    Its a big gap to fill, and do-gooders cannot fix it in a generation.

Its a big gap to fill, and do-gooders cannot fix it in a generation.

That’s right Doug, only the people themselves can fix it.

Ken said

That’s right Doug, only the people themselves can fix it.

Rather my point really.

Owen, I think that you see things from a left wing, liberal point of view.

Perhaps, but I prefer to adhere to the practical point of view. I wonder, for example, how you plan to inform anyone from a culture you consider “failed” that their culture is failed and how you would propose that they change. I guarantee that the only outcome will be either you get ignored or abused (or worse). If you want results, you have to do something that works. It is simply no good announcing you have a solution to a problem and expecting that folks will flock to you and your solution. That isn’t how people work. I have suggested things that work. You may think it left winged- but if that is what is required to get results- then that is what is needed. It’s all down too results.

The ‘stolen generation’ were usually saved from a dangerous home life in many cases.

The only legal requirement for a child to be removed in NSW until the mid 70’s from their families was to be described as “Aboriginal”. There did not have to be any abuse or neglect.
and
If you really think that the majority were in a better situation then you haven’t listened to many of them tell their stories. Many of the institutions that they were sent to were hotbeds of abuse. I worked briefly in a remnant state ward facility in the early 90’s and was consultant to another. The institutionalised abuse and neglect was a horror. If you wanted to plan out how to turn kids into nightmares and suicides then I’d write a programme identical to the one I worked in briefly. If you wanted to make them feel undervalued and hopeless, then the one I consulted with.
Removal from family is rarely without trauma. Removal from culture and family is a recipe for trauma. Before you go into defensive mode- ask yourself this- how is it that Indigenous people all over the world, from diverse cultures, ethnic groups, language groups and geo-climactic locations all collapse and end up displaying the worst traits of human society once they have been subjected to programmes of child removal and cultural disenfranchisement?
How can such diversity end up with the same result?
The answers are;
1) that this is a normal human response to such treatment
2) that such treatment is sure to bring on these outcomes.

This leaves us with a clear reminder that such activity is simply wrong- no matter how well intended.

You also said

The CMS missionary service stepped in and founded a mission which provided sanctuary and help to these people. They flocked in for their own good, and were grateful for the help and their lives.

Indeed, and there are a few other stories of a similar nature that I am aware of. But the majority of missions did not work that way. Many were more or less arms of Govt policy and were abusive and resembled little recognisably Christian. You have to remember that there was a lot of confusion of “Christian” with “Cultural superiority” which usually meant “technological superiority”. Much of the documentation relegated indigenous people as being culturally insignificant and genetic cul de sacs that would die out due to their “inferior heritage”. The disgust that our Indigenous people feel at the Terra Nullis claim is real and one we would also feel should another culture arrive, defeat us with superior technology and numbers and then refuse to recognise our legal status, our culture, our languages and also regard us as a dying breed. Actually, that did happen to the Anglo-Saxons after the Norman invasion.
Oh, and to the Celts before them.
And the damage took centuries to recover from cos the abuse was institutionalised by the state.
and if such an event happened in our future, the invader’s belief about our cultural and genetic inferiority would play out at every level of society and then, as we descended into family abuse cycles, substance abuse, violence, sexual assaults and whatever else- they would then point to these things and say “That is why they are inferior” and possibly even tell us to change our cultures and get rid of the rot.

Missionaries were kind and patient.

Many were, but being kind and patient in an organisation that still treated people as slaves- and the majority of kids removed into care were treated as such unless they were fostered into caring families. The difference was usually down to how dark their skin was. The darker the skin, the less likely they were to be fostered and they were then “trained” to be workers. The proportion of these indentured female workers who were sexually abused was horrific.

I remember hearing a talk by an Indigenous woman who was removed from her family because - they told her- she was dodging school, smoking, drinking and hanging out with boys. They then sent her to a facility where she was kept from school, smoked all day, drank and had sex. In fact, her paperwork only used the word “Aboriginal” as a reason for removal.

how you plan to inform anyone from a culture you consider “failed” that their culture is failed and how you would propose that they change. I guarantee that the only outcome will be either you get ignored or abused (or worse). If you want results, you have to do something that works. It is simply no good announcing you have a solution to a problem and expecting that folks will flock to you and your solution. That isn’t how people work. I have suggested things that work. You may think it left winged- but if that is what is required to get results- then that is what is needed. It’s all down too results.

I think the term ‘failed’ relates to parts of a culture that are not helpful to that culture’s progress, not the whole culture. (I have tried in some recent posts to limit my definition, you will find.)

Cultures which see no need to be educated, or which dress or act in a way which is unattractive to prospective employers, authorities etc, I suggest need to be made more aware of this. It is a neglect by Govt departments or social workers to not do this, I suggest.

By lovingly informing a culture that they will be doomed to failure should they not address some heridity faults, is not to my mind overbearing. It is loving act to do so, as long as it is done tactfully.

I am only writing these things because I see little change or progress by certain cultural groups, in our society. They continue to live lives blindly, with predictable and negative results.

(Maybe TV sit coms, movies etc, would best achieve the desired result? Problem is that most Aussie shows are interested in who likes who and who said what about someone else etc. Aussie shows are, generally, very shallow. 
US programs show ethnic problems, for example, warts and all. Australia - they don’t do it as well. TV is a good educator, and is not well used here.)

By lovingly informing a culture that they will be doomed to failure should they not address some heridity faults, is not to my mind overbearing. It is loving act to do so, as long as it is done tactfully.

Indeed. I’d suggest tactics like those I described earlier would achieve this. There are voices in the Indigenous communities that are calling for the removal of welfare reliance, to seriously tackle DV and child abuse and to attack head on the ravages of substance abuse. The Governments that are genuine in tackling these issues should be listening to such voices. Knee jerk responses like the “Intervention” that disempower the very folks who need to be empowered are hardly the best approach.

DV, child abuse and substance issues are hardly parts of Indigenous culture. In the local nation where I live, child abuse was ferociously dealt with by genital mutilation and complete exclusion by the tribe. DV was generally handled by the women ganging together and meting out serious punishment to the perpetrator. Such responses wouldn’t be welcomed by our legal system but they certainly indicate that these traits are not inherent to this nation’s cultural heritage. It happened after the Anglo invasion and conquest.
We therefore would do well to get people to rediscover their own cultures. I see that a lot here, if folks discover their own cultural heritage, the ensuing pride lifts them out of the bog they would otherwise be doomed to live in.

Well so it may be, but I don’t see anything wrong with being loving, and honest to different people who might be facing failure in the material world. Help to see cultural handicap is not a bad thing if handled correctly.

The spiritual world? Well people should not be ‘no-hopers’ in this area too - a good relationship with God should be their aim - this will solve many errors.

Ken, it appears we are pretty close to the same page, just using different language to get there.

I don’t see anything wrong with being loving, and honest to different people who might be facing failure in the material world.

I think I should just comment on the “I don’t see anything wrong with….”
It isn’t a matter of right or wrong. It is a matter of what works. There are a number of approaches. The “right” one is the one that works.

Help to see cultural handicap is not a bad thing if handled correctly.

Indeed
I think that one cultural handicap we possess is our assumption that we should always move on from the past. Although the past can be a millstone, it is also a resource and our culture’s almost absent interest in its own or anyone else’s history means that we are constantly running into well worn paths to well worn disasters ad mistakes.

Spoken like I expected. How would you handle the failure, for example of the Islamic culture in Western society. By the usual failed beaucratic philosophies and policy?

It is easy to spout epithets, but harder to turn the tide of a handicapped culture.

Sometimes honesty is the best policy. Islam is doomed to fail outside its own culture. There are good and bad muslims, but they really think the same way. The stats speak for themselves - high unemployment and reliance on welfare, high crime rates and gaol stats, into the black market and cash society. Plus a dislike of Western culture whilst milking it for all it’s worth.

How to eductate them? Or maybe you like the way that culture is going, and want to encourage them to not change?

After all that is the leftist way these days. And what success do we see for that well worn mantra?

It is better to tell them, in mass media, where they are going wrong so our whole country doesnt have to bear the costs of that continued social failure.

A timely article has just been published :

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/some-migrants-resistant-to-equality-abbott/story-e6freuyi-1225822656894

Some migrants resistant to equality - Abbott

From:AAP                   January 22, 2010 7:45PM

OPPOSITION Leader Tony Abbott has suggested some recent migrants oppose equality and he suspects Australians are anxious that citizenship is given away too lightly.

Without mentioning specific ethnic and religious groups by name, Mr Abbott has used an Australia Day Council address in Melbourne to raise controversial immigration issues.

“Some recent immigrants seem resistant to Australian notions of equality,’’ Mr Abbott told a dinner in Melbourne.

“There is, I suspect, an anxiety that the great prize of Australian citizenship is insufficiently appreciated and given away too lightly.’‘

He also suggested that unauthorised boat arrivals had raised fears that Australia’s borders are again uncontrolled and said people were concerned about whether the environment could cope with population pressures.

Asylum seekers arriving by boat could not be compared to authorised visitors who overstayed their visas, he added.

“There is an important distinction between boat arrivals on the one hand and, on the other, people who arrive without putting themselves in peril, on a valid visa, and only subsequently become unauthorised overstayers.’‘

The Opposition Leader also hinted that recent attacks on Indians could be discriminatory.

“We should be especially concerned at the possibility that ethnic Indians have become the victims of racially motived crime.’‘

In the speech Mr Abbott evoked John Howard’s 2001 re-election mantra, in which the then prime minister said: “We will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come.’‘

“John Howard’s declaration about Australians controlling who comes to this country resonated because it struck most people as self-evidently and robustly true,’’ the Opposition Leader said.

He attacked the Rudd Government’s border protection measures, saying that while people smugglers were the main villains, governments which allowed desperate people to think that getting on a boat might be a short cut to permanent residency would not be blameless.

While Mr Abbott conceded that Australia’s problem with boat arrivals was smaller than in the US or Europe, he raised concerns about terrorism if new arrivals were not controlled.

“Still, in a world where crime and terrorism are international in scope and where every developed country’s social security system is under pressure, a policy of benign indifference to new arrivals would defy common sense,’’ he said.

Mr Abbott argued Australia was a more tolerant nation, despite its history.

“For all the misguided and sometimes cruel treatment of Aborigines, the ethnic typecasting and occasional snobbery which still exists, Australia has rarely seen domestic discrimination based on race or culture,’’ he said.

Immigration to Australia had been a success “almost unparalleled in history’‘.

Mr Abbott added that supporters of tougher border protection measures needed to understand “it’s no reflection on boat people that they want to come to Australia’‘.

He appeared to support a growing population based on migration.

“The immigration rate should depend upon the strength of Australia’s economy, the confidence of our society and the readiness of potential migrants to make a commitment to their new country,’’ he said.

Australia did not have a “fixed carrying capacity’‘.

“My instinct is to extend to as many people as possible the freedom and benefits of life in Australia,’’ Mr Abbott said.

Ken
What on Earth do you think you are prattling about? Really, that was crap. 1) If you tell Muslims that they are all the same and that “same= failed” then you will succeed in uniting them in a siege complex and ensure that they do not listen. Is there any possible way I can get it through to you? If you tell people that they have failed you will get only negative responses.
Give me an instance where this has worked.
2) and as for the whole Muslims are all the same nonsense. really, if you believe that then you are failing to think at all. It is demeaning to them, it speaks poorly of your capacity to think and ultimately is blatantly untrue. There is an incredible diversity among Muslims. The more we attack their beliefs and cultures the more we unite them. This is simple human psychology. Not a thing “leftist” about it.

Perhaps if you stop labelling folks with leaden meaning and judgement?
leftist = follower of nonsense
Muslim = follower of dangerous cult
and other junk like that is plain nonsense.

Personally I find your preaching from a place of no experience in this stuff a bit silly. You want to get somewhere- try out your theories. If you are convinced it’s a go, get into it. I do this stuff all the time and know what works and what doesn’t for me and the people I have dealt with. I have done community development work in Cabramatta, Muswellbrook, Narrabri and even Kings Cross. It’s pretty basic to the work I do so I am not talking from some sort of theoretical base.
I say “Get out there son! Go and do it!”
If your ideas have merit then try em out. If not, then please either read up on effective community development strategies (ie; the stuff that actually works- there is plenty of theoretical models with leftist or “rightist” frameworks.) or shut up.
Leftist or not, I get results. let’s see you get some OK.

and yes I am angry. I find your preachy, usubstantiated, unthoughtful, ignorant, abusive nonsense an attack on the work of people I admire and ill-befitting anyone who really wants to make a change. Ken I believe you just want Muslims to admit they were wrong and you really think that will make a difference… and somehow you are delusional enough to think it will happen.

Great Abbot wants to campaign on race issues. I have been less than pleased with him anyway, I’d much prefer Turnbull who at least understood the concept of having principles.
Another race driven election and a race to the bottom on border protection is nothing less than disgusting. Nothing in Howard’s policy reign appalled me more than the way we treated assylum seekers.
We are called to care for the oppressed and the immigrant, the stranger in a strange land. Treating them as if they are criminals for escaping places like Sri Langka, Afghanistan or Iran is less than humane and demeans us as a nation. Abbott seeks to invoke fear and loathing. The numbers coming here are not huge. There is more to fear from those who arrive by plane than by leaky boat. But hey, why let facts get in the way of some good scare tactics?

Ken said

Spoken like I expected. How would you handle the failure, for example of the Islamic culture in Western society.By the usual failed beaucratic philosophies and policy?

Ken, what does this mean? What policies are you talking about?
I have no interest in some politically correct agenda which is, as far as I am aware, the extent of the bureaucratic policy towards Muslim people. Do you actually think any real community development work is being done by Governments? There are Islamic consultative groups, and I guess they have some sort of communicative properties and are useful but these are hardly community development. I know of real workers who actively, and on the ground are working to improve the lot of women in Muslim cultures in Oz. I know of others who are working in the HIV prevention field, those who work in mental health and the A & OD fields. None of these guys are nodding submissively to the demands of Muslim culture, but nor are they attacking it, telling it that it has failed and so forth. They are making a difference- and we all know this will take time. They all work in NGO’s. Many of them are Muslims themselves and they are good people with good hearts and would find your claims offensive generalisations made by someone who doesn’t know what he is talking about.
Once again Ken, I am left feeling like your agenda is promotion of the rectitude of whatever agenda it is that you have. Go and get into the work and tell me if you have the same beliefs about how to change communities after even a year. Your advice is exactly the same quality of the childless on parenting the screaming kid in a supermarket. Your peers all agree and you feel proud of your wisdom but it has no practical effect. The minute you are in that situation all your wisdom is dust and ashes.

Incidentally, as a response to both Ken’s and to Kevin’s posts. I have a very good friend, one who escaped Vietnam as a child with her family, who is now an Australian citizen (I was honoured to be invited to her Naturalisation Ceremony) who now works in the Sudan, in Darfur working very hard with the UN to improve the lot of women in that country.

Here is someone who Abbott and his ilk would exclude from Australia.
Here is someone who is working hard in a failed state (by this I mean an economic and legally/ politically unstable state) with an oppressive culture that is in a state of civil war. Here is someone who has put her money where her mouth is by going to one of the most dangerous places on this planet to do something to make things better.

Her I can admire, she has real knowledge and skill and has never been known to swallow party line without serious critique. She has little respect for the elements of that culture that oppress women in ways far more violent than are usual in this country, yet she also knows what works.
She is also what the Coalition would deny to this land, despite her integrity, her humanity and her incredible motivation to make substantial change. People like her work incredibly hard in making changes where changes are needed. I hope ken you can follow suit.
As for Abbott, he needs to obtain an element of humanity.

How to eductate them? Or maybe you like the way that culture is going, and want to encourage them to not change?

Is there a reason you are ignoring me? I have not said anything about not changing them or any other aspect of any cultural group, including my own, that is not working.
I have spoken to what works.
You have attacked strawmen, you have pontificated from a place of self righteousness and have not, for one second considered that someone you considered “wrong” might have something in their lives that works, is good or even functional.
I find your unwillingness to listen to even the simplest part of what I am saying irritating and your attitude arrogant. I would suggest, for safety’s sake that if you take up my challenge of community development, that you do so in a mild context. Your attitude could prove dangerous in many contexts. (unnecessarily so as well)

I think that Muslims and other handicapped cultures should be educated, starting in schools. Their continuing patterns of behaviour are not changing significantly under the present methods, by my obversations as I travel around Muslim neighbourhoods in my job.

If kids are made aware of the type of behaviours which lead to success in the world, and are made more aware of the results of inherited bad behaviour, they could only benefit. Set aside political correctness for their long term benefit. That is my only aim.

If handicapped groups like Muslims ignore the advice, then penalties should be introduced.

In my job as an inspector, that is how I am advised to operate in order to achieve compliance. This method actually works. After a few warnings, or a penalty or two, they seem to change non-compliant behaviour patterns quickly. The present set up doesn’t do this, and change is small.

When I say Muslims are very similar in their outlook on how they live in our society, my experience bears this out in my conversations with them. They are not bad people, but they have an Islamic view of things. That view is flawed, and in our society, it dooms them if they continue to think and act in that cultures way.

Owen I hardly expect you to agree with me, but, at this time, my comments are not for you but other readers of this link. They may see both sides of the question. I don’t completely disagree with your approach, but it is not dynamic enough to achieve good results.

Ken
\What you are suggesting is some sort of cultural inspector. It is a model built on
1) Assumptions about our superiority and their inferiority. You have previously claimed that colonisation was a good thing. Your current argument is based on a cultural colonisation. This has nothing to do with evangelism and to my mind is fundamentally flawed. It has been my job for over 30 years to work too repair the impact of the defects of our culture on individuals and communities. I think any claim to some sort of apex of culture is laughable. Convince me that is true when I see no more substance abuse, no more child abuse, care of the mentally ill, no homelessness, no sexual assault, no exploitation and real generosity of spirit to those who are different.
2) Generalisations. It has no capacity for nuance in it and therefore abandons entire groups to the same status. I am curious as to how you think that would work. Once again, forget ideoloy. How do you think an “Inspector” marking down a group from cultural group X as being culturally inferior or failed in Fredtown NSW will have capacity to cause the markdown of a related cultural group in Perth. Your posts are full of assumptions that you are explicit about. You claim all muslims are the same and that they have failed. I assume from this line of reasoning that the inspector would have this capacity. How do you think that could be viable? My co worker is Muslim. She is an extraordinary person. Her family are liberal in their approach to their faith and she thinks fundamentalists of all persuasions are nutters. Your statements have just rendered her in the same grouping as Osama Bin Laden.
3) You seem to have transposed your workplace assumptions as an inspector- for consumer affairs, to a completely unrelated area. Who would you penalise? Would you feel happy about Muslim countries penalising Christian groups for non-compliance? (it would be a legitimate cultural failure in such a context) A Muslim group “fails” so you penalise them. How would they then recover from this? Who would pay if the penalties are monetary? Do you think public castigation is useful?

I believe you have another agenda. You have come close enough to stating it
You want all Muslim groups to leave.
I think if you had your way you would deal with Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus and other groups, probably including Catholics, in the same way. Your agenda is to homogenise the country.
Well, nearly alll of the people who I have encountered as loathsome and nasty in my time have been anglo-Australians. I’m not so stupid as to therefore relegate the entire group into a waste basket, but it does make me pause and think about any claims to our superiority. Mind you, perhaps your agenda is fear based? Perhaps you believe that Muslims will over run the country and you think limiting them, persecuting them is appropriate? The Nazis had similar ideas about the Jews. The erstwhile Jugoslavia broke apart and a similar fear ran riot re Muslims. The Hutus had similar concerns re the Tutsis.
That is the logical and likely extension of your model. It has been played out in this country previously. Killings of Chinese and driving them out of the country. Massacres of our Indigenous people then a bureaucratic Progom aimed at diluting the races then eliminating it. I find this whole agenda disgusting.

If, on the other hand you are being benign but misguided in your assumptions, then once again, you build on dignity and strengths. Penalties do not cause societal shift, they cause retreat, marginalisation and siege complexes. If you want to build a group up you build- not tear down. Where there is a problem you find out the cause (some sort of “Muslim = failure” assumption provides no useful information from which to work and is as functional as a chocolate gun). I was listening to Occams Razor this morning and the discussion was about poor literacy skills in many Aboriginal communities. The discussion was about building dignity, getting trained Indigenous people to contribute, training teachers to understand the linguistic pitfalls of mixed language communication and how too work around this. real information and real solutions.
Not “they have failed so we penalise them”. But “why are they failing here?” How can we help? How can we get them to solve this problem?

. I don’t completely disagree with your approach, but it is not dynamic enough to achieve good results.

Then please describe a “dynamic” approach that works.

I suggest by this you mean “fast working”. I just bet you think a punitive approach will work quickly. I have said this to you before- I say it again “et some history!”
It would be nice if our culture learned from past mistakes. We don’t because we actually think stuff works based on premises that we consider logical but take no account of how people work nor the cultural basis of our logical starting points.

Owen said

I believe you have another agenda. You have come close enough to stating it
You want all Muslim groups to leave.
I think if you had your way you would deal with Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus and other groups, probably including Catholics, in the same way. Your agenda is to homogenise the country.

You are just putting your liberal philosophy on what I say, getting what I say to suit your straw man arguments.

I cant say it any other way mate, I just want to see disadvantaged groups not be penalised by a handicapped culture. And I mean this world wide. Your methods dont achieve this end.

You see your methods as being the only way. They are not, and many disadvantaged and ‘handicapped’ cultures will go on failing! You seem to be saying “I know everything there is to know on this topic, and you are too dumb to have any creative ideas”. So things should go on in a way that I am comfortable with.

When I hear someone say my arguments are right because I am this, or I have this experience, I ask only for their logical argument. Self praise is no recommendation. I am funny like that, I need to see results, and changes to be convinced. Not just liberal rhetoric!

People need to be made aware, even by startling methods, where they are heading. That is one point that I know is right. Sometimes we have to be cruel to be kind.

Ken
Once again, prove it!
There are probably dozens of ways to get results. Hundreds.
But one of them is not to penalise or castigate or blame.
Call me Mr Silly bugger but it has been tried many, many times and it don’t work. So, once again I say if you think it’ll work; go ahead and try it.

You keep on accusing me of being liberal and then saying this is a failed approach. Please show me where your right winged approach has succeeded in this matter. You are pretty quick to tell others that they are wrong, that they are wrong against a standard that is based on your moral agenda and that you are right. I wonder where your approach has worked.
The trouble with your set of assumptions is that you really believe that cultural change can actually be achieved inside a few years, in less than a generation.
So, get off your self righteous butt and do something!

I am not saying I am great at this, I have worked with folks who are brilliant and never gotten near their standard. But I can at least say I have been involved.
You can’t but you are filling this thread with pompous arrogance about what can be achieved by pointing out to cultures what is wrong. You haven’t researched the topic either. I bet because you assume that it is all left winged and liberal and therefore “failed”. It’s amazing what you call failed.
Many of the apporaches in this secotr are more right winged than you would have us believe. (Again, do some research)
You could try the Brotherhood of St Lawrence approach. Look em up. It works. It is more right winged than most other models. Until recently it was headed by an ex-banker. Mind you, the blame thing is surprisingly absent.
The micro-loan system is used in African and SE Asia and the sub-continent to help break the disadvantage women experience.It is changing the economies of whole districts. It also changes the family dynamics and social structure by giving economic power to women. Is that a “liberal” approach? ie; assisting people to set up small businesses?
The catholic school system does some pretty amazing things in some of the most marginalised city areas in the USA.
Their approach is again, not to accuse or blame- but what they do is tell the kids that although they have their own cultures etc, when they attend school, they will be entering something like a white anglo-saxon world and this is because it will help them to succeed. Blame and certification of failure doesn’t enter into it.

I wonder why you think it would.

I think you also haven’t learned from history in that each wave of cultural/ ethnic arrival to this land commence at economic and social disadvantage then they integrate and prosper. It takes two to three generations to happen.

Mind you, it was people from a failed Muslim culture in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s that opened up the centre of Australia. They were treated poorly and segregated. There were indeed mixed marriages but is was certainly frowned on. But the Birdsville track owes its prosperity in those times to the Afghans.

If you want change, do what works. I’d suggest you do research and find out what works. Then go out and do some work in this field you claim expertise in.
At this stage I hear you trying to hold on to your right to abuse other people by ... well, abusing me- calling me liberal, self aggrandising and failed. No worries, don’t care what you call me, but I do care that you might actually go around calling other people “failed” then blaming their failure as the cause for their resentment of you, (cos that is what wiill happen).
Your special eagerness to abuse and accuse Muslims is offensive. As I said, I have Muslim friends and colleagues and not only do they not resemble your comments, they also do not deserve your accusations in any way. I also find it offensive that you claim some special right to be abusive about something you know nothing about when I have a very good friend risking her life in an appalling place doing what you are claiming you want, but not using the very methods that would guarantee her death that you recommend.

get your hands dirty, or at least do some research.

Oh, I just remembered, I think it was Jesus who said all cultures have failed, and the only way to be saved, and to have a relationship with the true and living God, is through him. Jesus is the solution really.

Some cultures and religions, seem to get it more wrong though. I really think Islam is definitely on the wrong track, according to God that is. A religion that seeks to take over the world by force is not kosher. (excuse the pun)

I again remind you of the very bad, extremely negative statistics on muslims. There is even a special crime squad dedicated to muslim Crime Gangs. That seems to be the career of choice for many of them.

Social services fraud is also a biggie. I have heard, on the ABC a few years ago, that over 50% of Muslim people who could be employed, will never, ever be employed (officially that is)

I would, really hope that more muslims do come to Christ, and then save their lives. That is even more important than them being good citizens in the country they live in.

I guess I am a bit right of centre with my politics, but that is really irrelevant. As I said earlier, results matter. We identify a problem, find a solution, and solve it. It doesnt really help to get emotional or soppy.

You leaders out there, politicians, beaucrats - please just solve the problems with the handicapped cultures out there. Be they black, white or brindle. Be they whatever. A doomed person who is locked into a negative culture needs to be saved. Please don’t just find excuses for not doing anything on this problem, as has been the norm.

That’s it for me. I will let others continue the topic if they want. I have had enough of going around in circles.

I again remind you of the very bad, extremely negative statistics on muslims. There is even a special crime squad dedicated to muslim Crime Gangs. That seems to be the career of choice for many of them.

That is a typical pattern repeated by just about every arrival wave to this or any other country. When I worked in SW Sydney that was true of the Asian street gangs. Previously it was true of various other gangs going back to the terrible days when English (and before them Irish) gangs terrorised the streets and were known for rape, theft and extortion.

This is also true;

Social services fraud is also a biggie. I have heard, on the ABC a few years ago, that over 50% of Muslim people who could be employed, will never, ever be employed (officially that is)

of new arrivals.
This is a statement about how poorly we integrate new waves into this society. I think probably M Fraser got the formula best but even his was pretty hard. There is a lot of research into the effects of migration on communities and how it can be better handled. This is hardly ever looked at by any colour of politics which is sad. I expect a lot of disadvantage and marginalisation could be averted if policies were better. But usually migrants are left to fend for themselves. Refugees are often treated even worse, especially in the past ten- twelve years. eg; at one point when I was in homelessness work the Howard Govt stated we weren’t to assist any refugees who were homeless. Hardly a surprise when they turn to crime and resent us is it?

I guess I am a bit right of centre with my politics, but that is really irrelevant. As I said earlier, results matter. We identify a problem, find a solution, and solve it. It doesnt really help to get emotional or soppy.

]
Yes to the first bit but it isn’t irrelevant as you have been making a point of it rather exhaustingly. If not, then why use “liberal” and “leftist” with such derision?
As for getting emotionally soppy, if anyone in this field gets like that then I’d say they are useless. It is hard work and taxing on your soul and your energy. It can be dangerous and it certainly isn’t a place for the weak or emotionally feeble or soppy. I have been repeating this; your ideas have been tried and simply don’t work.
They create the opposite effect of the stated intention. It’s simply not a new idea Ken. I wish you would understand this.

Please don’t just find excuses for not doing anything on this problem,

This I totally agree with.

as has been the norm.

evidence please. You really have no idea what is being done and how hard it is to do. If you did you would be far more generous to hard working folks in often really dangerous jobs working for crap money. Many are people of faith (our faith BTW) and do not deserve such appalling blame and derision.

As for this going round in circles, well yes. You haven’t addressed my challenges to your argument other than by name calling.

You haven’t proffered examples where castigating a group has worked. I offered several where it hasn’t. eg; every indigenous group, the Nazi programme, derision of the Irish by the English.
You haven’t offered a case for why Muslims are substantially different to any other wave of immigrants to this country.
You haven’t even looked into what is being done in this country.

Sorry I have to add,

You haven’t offered a case for why Muslims are substantially different to any other wave of immigrants to this country.

Muslims are a problem in most countries that they go to because their culture is opposed to Western culture. They are a world wide problem, or maybe you havn’t read the news for the past few years, Owen.

They really are a special case. It is not bigotry or racism to know that they are a major problem in the World. Most Western observers have arrived at that conclusion, based on facts and statistics. Go to Answeringislam.org for more details, especially from ex-muslims.

I notice no comment on what Jesus wants from us all, but maybe he isnt your top priority. He derided people who had cultural handicaps - Pharisees.

Really Owen, your politics and work experience have only made you set in your ways, and you seem so sure that your way is the only and the best way. It is difficult to argue with you on that basis

So, you have made a statement that Muslims are a problem world wide because they oppose western culture. Actually I would argue that where they are a problem it is because they oppose the dominant culture, including in Muslim countries. eg; The Sunni/ Shi’a conflict in Iraq.
You haven’t made a case as to why they should all be lumped in the same basket. Turkish Muslims are very different from Saudi Muslims (differences within those groups notwithstanding). Your claim is an over-generalisation and needs qualification.

It is also true to argue that many Muslim groups resist cultural integration. So, I wonder how your approach would work given that resistance? If they already fear the dominant culture, then how do you suppose derision would work. You need to understand the difference between intent and how a message is perceived. This is basic to any community work. It takes almost no effort at all to ostracise a group by a careless remark or action. Then, once trust is lost progress ceases until trust is regained. A penalty and blame/ shame model would invoke that response at the outset. There is no service or group including the police who would regard your approach as functional. I have seen police actively argue against similar approaches because it won’t work. It has been tried, I’m not sure you understand just how extensively the blame/ shame model has been trialled.

I notice no comment on what Jesus wants from us all, but maybe he isnt your top priority.

Ken, you asked, in the OP, a community development question. I have responded to it accordingly and have tried to refrain from letting it stray into other fields. If I let this venture into a theological discussion then I am sure there would be all sorts of discussions based on theological differences- but no mention of what works! If we know an approach that is beneficial in intent for people works, then I believe this is morally what we should do. If we intend it to be beneficial and it doesn’t work, then it is morally wrong. I haven’t given you references because you are so quick to claim such work as is being done as being “leftist” that your prejudice is dismissive. Have you followed up on the Brotherhood of St Lawrence?

He derided people who had cultural handicaps - Pharisees.

He derided them for being teachers of the law and being hypocrites. You are misrepresenting the scriptures.

Really Owen, your politics and work experience have only made you set in your ways, and you seem so sure that your way is the only and the best way. It is difficult to argue with you on that basis

Astonishing! I have suggested you find approaches akin to yours that work. You have not done so either because you chose not to or because there are none.
I have spoken from experience- which you have not done- and you have derided this because it doesn’t fit your world view..
What I know about how to do this stuff is hard earned and at least has more validity than a claim for rectitude by someone who won’t even do basic research. Spare me the preaching until you have done something other than pontificate.
I also resent the “only and best way” claim. I have specifically said that your suggestion won’t work and why. It has been tried before. Please pay attention. There are plenty of ways to do this work. The derision model has always been unsuccessful.

I want to know why you want so hard to attack a whole group of people. Why do you want to do it so much that you refuse to agree that any approach other than your own is valid (all others being “leftist” , “failed” and so forth). You have claimed I am blinded, but you, without experience, without the willingness to explore what has been done successfully, without any support data regarding your approach other than a strong urge to castigate- you claim all other approaches are wrong or failed and that yours- which has been tried and has failed many times over- is the option to explore.

Beam in thine eye methinks.

Let’s try this from another angle Ken.
There are basically two ways to elicit change from a group- any group. This is whether or not one is a member of that group or not.
1) Force, use of coercive powers to force change, by policy, persecution or prosecution.
2) By gaining their trust and working with them to obtain change.

Sometimes a combination is attempted. eg; special police squads targetting gangs use both methods. They build rapport but also set limits and guidelines as to what is or isn’t ok. For a police squad the limits are set by the law, they are clear and can be described, and enforced. They aren’t arbitrary so the gang members can be clear that the police are doing their job and that there is still the court system as a check against any arbitrary actions by police.

If enforcement is the model tried without any attempt at trust then the group in question goes to ground very quickly and becomes anti-social.
trust must be built if any progress is to be made.

To have status/ trust/ rapport with the group, you have to engage with them. If you do not engage then there is no trust and nothing you have to say will be heard or accepted. Further- every sub-group, culture or ethnic group has its own customs and rules. Without adequate understanding of these rules and ways of communication then trust cannot be built and engagement is automatically fraught. If you go to a group of elderly people and play rap music for a dance party you are likely to annoy or shock them. You won’t engage and you won’t build trust. It’s not their music and they are likely to be offended. Even if it was Christian rap.
If your line of engagement is with the intent of criticism then engagement is sabotaged early on. Either your criticism will show through rapidly and trust won’t be built or it will appear that you have been deceitful all along and rapport broken.

If you aren’t willing to engage and build trust and rapport then there is no reason to listen to you. Why should they?
If you chose, as you suggested, a punitive model- penalties for non-compliance- then there is absolutely no reason for them to trust you. Many groups will remember similar treatment in the past recent generations and become fearful that the penalties are but a thin edge of the wedge. If you don’t remain aware of their histories then it is highly likely that they will fear such approaches even more as persecution carries down multi-generational lines.

So, you have to engage and build rapport. I suggest that your idea is one that has been tried and fails because it is without a chance of building rapport or trust, and will certainly lose it rapidly. It can work if you are willing to stay alongside them, to respect what is positive in their cultures and to use objective learning and real lived experiences alongside them to elicit change. But the cost is real engagement- without derision or contempt. It is about helping them to obtain dignity and to build on what they have that is good. It may require punitive measures where laws are broken.

But, unless I am reading you wrong, this is not what you are suggesting, is it?