Say you planted a church in an area that was mostly young families and growing rapidly with more of the same moving into the area.
The area also has a retirement village not far away.
After 2 years, the plant is still running one morning service and has seen a number of older people join from the retirement village - some already Christians, some “lapsed” church goers and some new.
The number of older people in the congregation is now disproportionately high vs the areas demographics (mainly early 30’s, 2+ kids <10).
The service style has been largely contemporary, and music wise, the mix is 80-90% contemporary (Emu, Sov Grace, old school (Nicky Chiswell etc), no Hillsong) with the balance the big gun hymns.
There is now a big push from the older contingent to significantly up the proportion of hymns sung, and to arrange them traditionally (i.e. piano/organ style).
The older members are clearly unhappy with the service, but the risk in the desired direction *may* alienate the dominant demographic in the area.
I’d up the mix of hymns, but do them in a contemporary style. After putting together 40 or so chord charts, I believe hymns can work pretty well for contemporary congregations, so long as they are done right.
Why do we have to split congregations? Over what? Music. Mark please don’t take this personally, I’m not aiming this at you. We have two Church services and music is only one reason why. I’m saddened by it because it means we are not united in our style of Church service yet know the same Jesus.
Surely there are other ways then making more work for our Ministers and Church musicans? That means attending 2 services. Can’t people just compromise? Honestly this will teach the congregation members to put up with something they don’t like in order to serve their brother or sister in Christ (Love in Action). Otherwise, you are just pandering to everybody’s self-centered nature. Well that is how I see it anyway.
Personally I like hymns because of my classical training in music. The modern stuff just sounds like anything else you hear on the radio, but I still go to the family service and put up with it.
Craig that is a great idea. I also think some of the ‘scripture in song’ songs can also work to bridge the gap between contemporary and hymns. Try some different ones and find out what the congregation like. You’ll quickly know which ones are popluar, the congregation will be belting them out and even clapping along or doing the little hand movements to the song.
I’m not at all offended by what you’re saying and what you’re suggesting is the ideal outcome which I think would be brilliant. But if I learnt one thing in my seven years of being a church minister it’s that it’s very difficult to get the ideal outcome on such subjective matters no matter how hard you pray and try. Good on you though for being willing to put up with music that isn’t to your taste.
Having multiple congregations is not necessarily a bad thing either. It definitely provides more capacity to allow for growth.
Yep Mark, the reality is we’re not in heaven yet. So we have to deal with people who are still selfish at times making it difficult for ministers to please everybody. I keep our church leaders in my prayers, it’s a tough job.
Depends on what kind of retirement village you have. [i.e. are they able bodied people or mobility impaired]
You could use the age old art of distraction! Take the focus off the need to change the music. Distract them with something else more important.
Approach the oldies who have taken ownership of the church as their own. Ask them to help you devise ways to reach out to the community in which they live. Ask them for ideas on how to reach the young families in the area. There are many oldies who dearly love having children around.
Once you do that .......prayerfully ... and hopefully ... they might start to think about the needs of the young families. Even if they cannot actively participate in outreach ideas, they might start praying for their community, which in turn will change their focus from worrying about the music .... but instead focus on “what can I do” to help my church grow for the next generation.
@Craig - nice website plug opportunity :~). I have been playing simplified, contemporised hymn versions for a number of years, so could do this, however, the strong desire is for traditional renditions.
@Mark - I do have some sympathy with multiple services…my previous church had a liturgical prayer book service and then several contemporary services, so musical preferences were not as much of an issue.
@ Milicia - I also hear where you are coming from…I think generational segregation has been bad for the church and has robbed us of opportunities for mentoring and passing on of life widsom. It is selfishness at the core which drives us to demand the styles we like. I know I am selfish in my preferences for few hymns (honestly though, I find the majority of them tedious)
@ Heather - thanks for the suggestions. One thing I wonder is whether it would be better to start a completely new service in the retirement village itself. There will certainly be people who can’t get around very well and wouldn’t make the trek up the road to get to our exisiting location no matter what the style. I reckon you could kick off a litugical service chock full of hymns in the village…I would even volunteer to play the music if it meant lots of people could come and hear about Jesus.
I like Milica’s first post. This must present a great opportunity to learn to live together and worship together. There are some great new hymns and also some great old ones. Both sides are enriched if they’ll give it a go.
If all the music is theologically sound and people are still so concerned about it, I would be worried about whether they are actually true believers. Music preference is the problem of cultural Christianity.
In some churches these days, the music is offensively loud. We need to be considerate of one another. And younger people need to learn that they do not need to have everything ear-bleedingly loud. They’ll thank the old fogies for it later ... when they’re old fogies!
I’m not into loud church music either. Our church certainly doesn’t fit the offensively loud category…hard to achieve much volume with an acoustic guitar and occaisionaly key board!
In some churches these days, the music is offensively loud. We need to be considerate of one another. And younger people need to learn that they do not need to have everything ear-bleedingly loud. They’ll thank the old fogies for it later ... when they’re old fogies!
David
My husband Peter was reading over my shoulder and instructed me to say “he agrees with you totally”.
My hubby is in his 50s and one of the Church drummers. LOL
Is there no way of achieving a balance in each service?
Say the music team leads 3-5 songs..in no order you might have, for example:
#1 Modern, contemporary song, though not too jazzy or noisy arrangement
(e.g. Rob Smith’s “You alone”)
#2 Classic, rousing hymn with classic tune (maybe lyrics adjusted for modern not thee/thy language), with accompaniment on plain piano/organ/organ sound on electronic keyboard
(e.g. “God is our strength and refuge”, Dambusters theme tune)
#3 Energetic (but not breakneck-speed) contemporary, maybe with more prominent drums/bass
(e.g. “Blessed be Your Name” - Redmans or something?)
#4 Classic hymn, newer music to original words (maybe Garage Hymnal, though I’m personally not a big fan), piano & other one-line instrument, light use of drums/percussion & bass
(e.g. Nathan Tasker’s cover of “Nothing but the blood of Jesus”,
or Ruth Buchanan’s “Rock of ages”)
#5 Modern, contemporary song with more reflective feel, slower tempo
(e.g. “Beautiful Saviour” - Townend?)
I felt that the music at CMS Summer School achieved this kind of balance nicely in the 4 consecutive days I was privileged to be there.
It might be worth considering also that just because you’re “younger” (ie. under 40) doesn’t mean you have no value for “older” songs.. ..
.. ..A significant number of friends of mine, from non-Christian backgrounds, became Christians in their 20s. They never grew up on the old classic hymns in church (because grand/parents weren’t Christians obviously) - and yet, these friends still appreciate the old hymns; some of my friends, like me, just love hymns sung the old-fashioned way to the old-fashioned tunes.
A few coppers to add to the busker’s hat!
TZ.
P.S. Sorry all for my sketchy attendance on these fora of late! You’d think an unemployed person would have more TIME!! Honestly, I just don’t know where the time has gone in the last fortnight.. ..
I think a healthy church is varied in age, ethnicity, family status, education level and socioeconomic group. If we’re all focused on GOd and not on ourselves we should all be learning from one another and people at different life stages can help each other, eg uni students can babysit for young families, older people can be “grandparents” for young families who may not have older generations around, families can provide hospitality. I don’t think that’s pie in the sky as my church only has one service and it’s a very heterogenous congregation and whilst it tends towards traditional hymns there is variety in the music, gheesh even Shine Jesus Shine gets a look in occassionally.
There is no reason why music can’t reflect this, why can’t there be a mixture of hymns, choruses and modern worship songs. If we’re all interested in serving each other, then participating in music that isn’t exactly to our taste is a minor thing.
That’d be right Kev, and not too dissimilar to my church’s experience.
We have a pretty even 50/50 split between hymns (pre-1985) and contemporary songs (post-1985). If anything, Christian visitors to our church often claim that such an arrangement’s too quaint!
Some Christians I’ve met say they can only worship with a particular syle of music. I’ve even had someone my age walk out when I was playing an older hymn, in protest because it was not “seeker sensitive.”
I’ve experienced Christians who refuse to sing anything they don’t regard as a hymn.
This really is a great area for us to display the fruit of the Spirit.
Some Christians I’ve met say they can only worship with a particular syle of music. I’ve even had someone my age walk out when I was playing an older hymn, in protest because it was not “seeker sensitive.”
Hi David,
That’s almost unbelievable - especially for someone your age ! Maybe they just didn’t like your playing skills - and didn’t want to offend you ;)
Some Christians I’ve met say they can only worship with a particular syle of music. I’ve even had someone my age walk out when I was playing an older hymn, in protest because it was not “seeker sensitive.”
Hi David,
That’s almost unbelievable - especially for someone your age ! Maybe they just didn’t like your playing skills - and didn’t want to offend you ;)
We have a pretty even 50/50 split between hymns (pre-1985) and contemporary songs (post-1985). If anything, Christian visitors to our church often claim that such an arrangement’s too quaint!
Pre-1985 = hymns!!?!! What happened in 1985 I wonder?
I was sure I remembered singing ‘choruses’ - as we called them then - before 1985. We certainly didn’t call them ‘hymns’!! So I checked the annals of my old Scripture in Song books - books 1 & 2 were indeed published pre-1985. But I think all the songs are well and truly out of use now. And looking back on them, they look kindof naive.
Makes me ponder - these songs represented in some way the sentiments and spirituality of a particular generation or mini-generation. Take them away, and there is a subtle change. It’s not just the form or musical style. There is a subtle change of message. I don’t mean to suggest anything sinister or heretical. I’m pondering on the effect on those who identify with a particular movement when things move on. Do they feel discarded too?
Makes me ponder - in another 10 years, will ‘contemporary’ be post-1995, like a moving generational window? Pre-1985 ‘choruses’ seem to have disappeared into an embarrassed void. And if and as that void widens, will ‘hymns’ persist?
Makes me ponder - those ‘oldies’ certainly have a strong attachment to the old forms to drive them to persist when pre-85 ‘choruses’ seem to have evaporated.
Final note (from grumpy old woman) - as you get older, it gets much harder to learn new and unfamiliar stuff (change in musical styles etc.).
Makes me ponder - these songs represented in some way the sentiments and spirituality of a particular generation or mini-generation. Take them away, and there is a subtle change. It’s not just the form or musical style. There is a subtle change of message. I don’t mean to suggest anything sinister or heretical. I’m pondering on the effect on those who identify with a particular movement when things move on. Do they feel discarded too?
There are plenty of pre-1985 choruses still in regular use at our church, and sung with familiar passion. These off the top of my head:
Amazing Love
As The Deer (sometimes we add Don Moen’s new verse)
Be Still
Make Me A Channel Of Your Peace
Shine Jesus Shine
The Servant King (we sung that last Sunday!)
There Is A Redeemer
I don’t see them going out the window anytime soon as we give them lasting gospel & sentimental value.
Makes me ponder - in another 10 years, will ‘contemporary’ be post-1995, like a moving generational window? Pre-1985 ‘choruses’ seem to have disappeared into an embarrassed void. And if and as that void widens, will ‘hymns’ persist?
Some Christians I’ve met say they can only worship with a particular syle of music. I’ve even had someone my age walk out when I was playing an older hymn, in protest because it was not “seeker sensitive.”
I’ll quote a common introductory word from contemporary rap ... “WHAT?!”
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