“Islam is not simply a private religion. It is driven by a powerful political agenda, it is an ideology with a plan for world domination,” the letter said.
“The Quranic Society application to establish an Islamic school in Camden is typical of a regularly repeated pattern to form a beachhead in an area for the development of a sub-culture which, for the most part, regards its own legal system as superior to the current Australian law.”
They said the Muslim community would seek to dominate public space in Camden “as we have seen in Auburn, Bankstown, Lakemba and more recently Liverpool”.
In their objection, the Christian ministries said they may be seen as racists or hypocrites but they were trying to preserve a rich, hard-won way of life that was incompatible with Quranic Society teachings.
“The Quranic Society espouses a world view which is not compatible with broader, Australian egalitarian culture,” they said.
“A fundamental tenet of the faith is that Muslims are not required to obey any law that does not come from Allah.”
I am fairly disappointed with the four church leaders who signed off on this letter. They should not be acting like politicians and scoring cheap points against Islam in this manner. Politicians represent their constituents’ worldly desires - church leaders are supposed to represent God’s desires.
What Camden’s “rich, hard-won way of life” has to do with the church, and why it is considered by the church to be a good thing is beyond me. Ironically, that very “way of life” is one of the main barriers to the spread of the gospel in that area! Life is too good out here for anyone to be bothered with Jesus. Is it not possible that the presence of a Muslim community might shake people out of there comfortable lives? That it might cause people to start thinking about religious matters? Could it be that these church leaders have lost sight of the bigger picture and enjoy the “rich, hard-won way of life” and comfortable racial demographics they and their parishoners enjoy over and above the cause of the gospel?
For the church to disagree with Islam is perfectly fine and I’d be worried if it didn’t - but isn’t this a wonderful opportunity for churches in Camden to be able to witness to Muslims? Surely the Christian “egalitarian culture” says not only are all people equal, but all people are equally sinful and in need of the saving grace of the cross.
Churches gladly send missionaries to other countries and cultures - but we don’t want those cultures to come to us. Go figure. If the school proposal does go ahead and Muslims do come to Camden, these four church leaders are going to have a hard time engaging with the community and spreading the gospel, having established that they do not want Muslims around in “their” area.
Nick, I think it may profit your education to live in, say Padstow or Lakemba, for a year, say, before you may realise the difference living in a Muslim community actually is.
I know many Muslim Australians, and they are not demons, but their lives are driven by the directives of their Muslim Culture/Politics/Religion. The aims of Islam is bring about an Islamic world. I find many Muslims to be very nice people. The extreme side of Islam is the problem. Read Is Islam a peaceful religion?
I’m very happy that most Muslims are willing to live in peace with their neighbors. Yet we have to be honest here. Benevolent Muslims aren’t peaceful because they are following the example set by Muhammad. They are peaceful because they’ve chosen to do what’s right, and because they are willing to live far better lives than Muhammad himself lived. In fact, many Muslims are such kind, peaceful, and gentle people that they seem to be following the example set by another great religious leader—one who died on the cross for the sins of the world and rose from the dead to prove his message. This man gave his listeners a sober warning: “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:15). And, may I add, we should also watch out for false religions, which come to us crying “Peace! Peace!” when they are built on a foundation of murder and bloodshed.
In countries like Australia where Muslims are less than 2%, they are peaceful. When their numbers reach over 5% it is proven by facts that they become more militant. As their numbers increase the politics changes. It is not idle dreaming that Islam seeks to take over.
This link may be extreme but do the facts presented stack up: Muslim Takeover?
We need to view Muslims as people following an incorrect religion. We also need to be aware of the political aims of Islam. Hiding our heads in the sand will not solve the problem. Muslims will not co-exist with non-muslims if they have the numbers. They will persecute non-muslims, as history shows clearly in the countries where they have the population edge.
Thanks for the links Ken. That “Muslims Takeover” link has these sobering statistics :
1. 80% of the women in Oslo’s shelter system are Muslims fleeing abusive families, husbands, and boyfriends;
2. Danish Muslims make up 5% of the population but 40% of the welfare rolls;
3. refugee—friendly Switzerland is already 20% Muslim;
4. the world’s most wonderful city (in my view) Amsterdam is now majority Muslim;
5. 70% of all French prisoners are Muslim;
6. the four London bombers that killed 56 in July of 2005 received almost a million dollars in welfare benefits.
It seems that there is HUGE wall of difference between Islam as a ‘religion’ and Islam as a ‘political movement’ ( and it is definitely not a democratic one as history continues to show us ). We ourselves need to differentiate between Christians being ‘nice’ and being ‘naive’.
Islamic school would breed terrorists: resident
Elicia Murray Urban Affairs Reporter
April 23, 2009
Camden resident Kate McCulloch. Photo: Ben Rushton
AN Islamic school in Camden would be “a breeding ground for terrorists”, says a resident who gave evidence in support of Camden Council at an appeal against its decision to block the school.
Judith Bond said the school would teach war and how to kill.
“Values of violence will be emphasised. It will be a breeding ground for terrorists … There will be a surge of gang rapes, looting and attacking infidels,” Ms Bond said.
Camden residents presented evidence via DVD at the second day of a hearing to decide whether the $19 million Islamic school should be built on the outskirts of the town south-west of Sydney.
The area’s Christian values were threatened by the proposal, said another resident, John Waterhouse, who warned Christmas decorations and nativity scenes would be “pulled down or withdrawn on some sort of process of religious nit-picking”.
Describing Camden as “the mouse that dared to roar”, he said he did not want prayer mats unrolled in shops or “[our] teenage daughters subjected to demeaning taunts wearing jeans, shorts or T-shirts”.
Another resident, Kate McCullogh, who was compared with Pauline Hanson when she addressed a meeting last year wearing an Akubra hat decorated with Australian flags, said she was “no redneck xenophobic racist like the media have put to me”.
“Let’s start making people understand that the Western way of life is the best way of life,” she said.
Other residents’ objections were based on urban planning matters, including traffic flow and proximity to working farms.
Until now, Camden Council has largely distanced itself from ideological justifications for blocking the development application for a 900-student school. When it voted unanimously to reject the project last May, it did so “on planning grounds alone”.
But on the opening day of the appeal to the Land and Environment Court on Tuesday, council’s barrister, Craig Leggat, SC, opened his evidence with a letter signed by a group of the region’s Christian leaders, who said Islam was an ideology with a plan for world domination.
The Reverend Fred Nile, leader of the Christian Democratic Party and an outspoken critic of the school, said the signatories had his full support.
None of the church leaders responded to the Herald’s calls yesterday. The hearing continues today.
And what is with comments like “The aims of Islam is bring about an Islamic world”? You do know there are 200+ million Muslims just north of us? How many of them are plotting world domination? Given they outnumber us 10:1 I hope you’ve got a nice bunker built with several decades worth of canned food.
As for those idiotic statistics - did you know almost 100% of criminals in Australian jails are Australians? Did you know that Christians make up the majority of all religious people in Australian jails? We have to do something about those Australians, especially those Australian Christians!
Why stop at religion? Black people are far, far over-represented in US and Australian jails. Maybe black people are the problem? Have you ever known what it’s like to live in a Black neighbourhood?
I love this though:
Another resident, Kate McCullogh, who was compared with Pauline Hanson when she addressed a meeting last year wearing an Akubra hat decorated with Australian flags, said she was “no redneck xenophobic racist like the media have put to me”.
Well I was a little fired up before ;) But honestly, you’ve got to check your statistics people. Switzerland is 20% Muslim? A quick Google search turns up this info in Wikipedia: “According to the Confederate census of 2001, a total number of 310,807 Muslims were living in Switzerland which made up 4.26% of the total population[1]. Islam is not an officially recognized religion in Switzerland.[2]”
The deep irony of these “Christian” v Muslim spats is that Christians and Muslims have far more in common than the secular Westerners who so-called Christians (in the Camden) case usually side with.
Consider views on:
- There being a God
- Alcohol being a bad thing
- Dressing conservatively being a good thing
- Regular prayer being a good thing
- ‘Traditional’ gender roles being important
- Homosexuality being a bad thing
- Marriage being very important
Yet ‘Christians’ go in to defend “Aussie values” which are what, exactly?
This appeal to “Aussie values” turns my mind to Sarah Palin’s suggestion to rural communities that they were the “Real America”. If “Aussie values” constitute anything meaningful at all, my guess is that such values are an indictment upon our identity, rather than something to be proud of.
I find it amusing that whenever the sociological evidence on any particular group in society is published, the liberals cry the RACIST taunt.
If I am to be branded rascist, then read on and be confirmed in your view. This article entitled Why Muslims are doomed to fail will surely prove that we have nothing to fear from them.
An extract from that link is sure to bring out more “racist” taunts:
An essential question that everyone, Muslims included, should ask is this—why are Muslims among the worst performing groups (nations, societies, etc) anywhere on the planet? Name any area of achievement, any field of human endeavour—patents filed, literacy, quality of life, degree of civil or political freedoms, transparency, world-class universities, and so on. In every case, the nations of Islam are at or near the bottom in every category, and only barely beat sub-Saharan Africa in overall performance. How has this dreadful state of affairs come to pass?
The answer is simple—Muslims are intellectually paralyzed by their own philosophy.
In matters of the intellect, Muslims are a miserable failure. It isn’t because their genes are so different from everybody else’s. It’s because their philosophy (a.k.a. Islam) has sucked their minds dry from infancy onwards. In this respect, it is the best in human history, as no other philosophy has been so successful at institutionalizing failure among its followers. This onerous process begins at birth, when it is the tradition in many Islamic countries for the father to recite the Shahada (the Muslim declaration of belief) in the newborn’s ear. It’s all downhill from there.
To analyse philosophical differences effectively, one must first know the difference between the different branches of philosophy. Philosophy has five major branches, listed and generally defined as follows:
Epistemology—the methods that knowledge is found or made valid
Ethics—the cultural standards of good or ‘right’ behaviour
Politics—the application of ethics to social behaviour
Metaphysics—concerned with explaining the ultimate nature of reality, and lastly,
Aesthetics (to be explained below)
In a nutshell, here are the differences between Islamic philosophy and the Judeo-Christian (a.k.a. Western) one:
Western epistemology = reason and the scientific method
Islamic epistemology = “revelation”, or whatever Allah sees fit to reveal
Western ethics = the sanctity of human life
Islamic ethics = the spread of Islam by any means whatsoever
Western politics = recognition of individual rights
Islamic politics = submission and totalitarianism
Western metaphysics = the universe, and all of existence, follows natural law
Islamic metaphysics = every event at every moment is controlled by Allah’s whim
I would have thought that if you were serious about this issue, you could simply say that religious intolerance is wrong, especially from Christians.
Where is the diocesan leadership on this? It would be nice to see some pro-active, public statement that religious intolerance as we’ve seen from Camden churches is neither Christian nor appropriate for multicultural Australia.
We’d be outraged and appalled if the shoe was on the other foot, but when it’s us who are the intolerant ones, it’s softly, softly.
Aren’t we the ones practicing, or silently condoning, ‘dhimmitude’ - becoming the very things we allegedly oppose?
Also, I can’t work out if this is ironic or logical:
Btw it’s “anti-Muslim” not “racist”. Unless you’ve been physically set upon on account of your race, I think that the term “racist” should only be used where appropriate.
Ok this issue’s giving me a bit of a headache ... will think for a bit before getting back on it. It’s not an easy issue that’s for sure. How can we defend free speech without unnecessarily promoting Islam?
Btw it’s “anti-Muslim” not “racist”. Unless you’ve been physically set upon on account of your race, I think that the term “racist” should only be used where appropriate.
THANK YOU Arthur - for reminding us that Islam is NOT a race !
( And I also rejoice with you that the ‘Saints’ won in NRL. )
Btw it’s “anti-Muslim” not “racist”. Unless you’ve been physically set upon on account of your race, I think that the term “racist” should only be used where appropriate.
No I think it really is racist - Islam is just part of a culture of an ethnicity that people are afraid of due to their differences, hence the hysteria about them being terrorists or plotting world domination.
I doubt Indonesian Muslims would elicit such a fearful, hysterical response, for example.
I also doubt there would be such an outcry if they were white.
Today it’s the Muslim Middle Eastern ‘terrorist’ bogeyman, yesterday it was the Asian one (my nan still looks me in the eye and says “You know, they say we’re going to become an Asian nation one day”), or the Greeks, or the Italians.
Luke, on this issue I am with you. Did anyone see the very thoughtful piece in the SMH today by a Muslim journalist, Nadia Jamal? Of course the title to the article is offensive and wrong- “Room for more than one faith at the inn” is some kind of “all ways lead to God” thing, I guess. But she correctly points out that the mere fact that an Islamic school will advocate a different political and ideological position to Christians (and nice that she sees this), is not a reason to demand that it not be allowed to share the suburb.
I must say I was very saddened to hear that an Anglican church had joined in a letter of the sort that has been reported. I say this conscious that I don’t know all the pressures involved (and I do know Tony Galea to be a good man). But I have to say that, whatever imperatives of local Christian unity or whatever else motivated the decision, it was not a good decision and has opened up the church to legitimate accusations of racism and intolerance (in the bad sense of the word.)
To my mind it is a fantastic gospel opportunity for a group of Muslims to be moving into the local suburb. The talk of takeovers etc is extremely far-fetched; not least for the reason that Ms Jamal notes, with refreshing honesty, referring to the Muslim community’s “factionalised and fractured state, locally and internationally”. I have lived in a Muslim country; I can tell you that Australia is a very, very long way away from being in danger of becoming one!
I have also been a bit sad that there has not been more open and clear discussion on the official SydAng site. Unless something is said soon to clarify that the diocese does not share the views put forward, there is a danger that it will be tarred with this brush. Luke, you were right to comment on the irony of Christians attacking anti-vilification laws and yet at the same time allowing their name to be associated with arguably racist comments. I totally agree that we should not have anti-vilification laws; that all members of society should be free to have a robust debate about religion. But that is not achieved by saying that we don’t want people from a different religious background in our neighbourhood!
Luke, you were right to comment on the irony of Christians attacking anti-vilification laws and yet at the same time allowing their name to be associated with arguably racist comments.
I’m not sure that’s irony at all. Christians are fighting for the right to vilify others through their opposition to this legislation and through their campaign against the establishment of this Islamic school. It seems like two sides of the same coin to me.
I see arrogance and conceit everywhere in this.
Isn’t that a sin in itself.
Must be wonderful to know that you have the one true God ......what can I say! Enough to drive anyone away.
Christians seem to say one thing and act another in my experience.
.....think about it.
My grandson has a Muslin friend here this weekend from his school .....just watching them plough through their cornflakes as the must be on a mission to get outside now the rains stopped.
Anton doesn’t appear to have any horns that I can see .....maybe they are retractable.
His Mum will be over to get him at lunch time and I’ll ask her about this crap and how it affects her family.
I encourage Anton to visit as he is a good example to the other kids ....especially about respect for elders and others.
I think all this attack on islamic schools is about ignorance and fear unfortunately and exactly how we got to where we are in the world.
Wasn’t it Keating who said “If we go down this road it will be a long, long way back!” ...I think it applys to this situation also!!
The deep irony of these “Christian” v Muslim spats is that Christians and Muslims have far more in common than the secular Westerners who so-called Christians (in the Camden) case usually side with.
Consider views on:
- There being a God
- Alcohol being a bad thing…
The alcohol one’s not quite right is it? Christians don’t think alcohol as such is a bad thing the way that Muslims do (I have just finished reading the first half of John 2 for church).
Yes, and not just from the anti-Muslim brigade either.
Obviously there’s the conceit of the anti-Muslim people who masquerade as Christians. How blind can people be, automatically thinking that one culture is superior to something they’ve had little/no familiarity with.
Also from those wishing to set up the school. Surely they’d know that this kind of response was coming? Trying to set up a large-scale Muslim school in some place which has few to no Muslims. It’s almost as if they had it coming. (For clarity I think of parallel examples of 1000-capacity venues like setting up a Buddhist establishment in the Shire, a Chinese school in the Manly area, or a far right-wing political forum in the centre of say Lakemba - from a planning or tolerance perspective they simply wouldn’t happen).
Thanks Neil and others for the comments. Craig, yes Muslims generally prohibit alcohol outright, I was just saying our position as Christians is closer to that than the secular drinking culture.
I must say I have been a bit intrigued by some of the responses to the issue on Sydneyanglicans.net.
I asked if AMS would be interviewing Tony Galea (the minister of the Anglican church who signed the letter), and Natasha Percy responded saying:
Thanks for your question. It’s our understanding that Tony Galea isn’t talking to the media at this stage and given the potential for misunderstanding on this issue, this would seem to be a wise move. In turn, anything he says on this site could be misconstrued.
I responded that I couldn’t imagine a friendlier platform than Sydneyanglicans.net/Southern Cross to make his position clear, but whatever. Anyway, then I saw this response to questions from Neil (& Roger) from Russell Powell, the Archbishop’s media advisor:
Roger and Neil, a lot of what is being said in the newspapers about this is being reported late and out of context. I’d be wary of condemning anyone for their comments. The way Christians are being ‘portrayed’ and what christians actually say are invariably two different things. Also, don’t forget that in debates about Islam, people are usually described as either Muslim or Christian rather than Muslim or non-Muslim.
Now this is especially odd. Powell made no mention of the Camden story in his ‘top 5 stories for the week,’ as was pointed out in the comments. In his response there is no outright denial that the reporting was factually wrong, just hints of a media beat up & some smoke and mirrors. Unfortunately comments are closed on that article, so I can’t respond there, but they obviously know something we don’t. Maybe Galea hadn’t seen the letter he eventually ‘signed’ or something, or the contents of the letter are different to what has been reported, but if so, why not come out and say so? The strangest thing is there are comments from Galea in the 2007 local Camden paper sounding quite sympathetic to the Muslims, and hardly terrified of their apparent aims of world domination.
It’s a shame we can’t get the full story. Too much PR methinks!
an aside but we have a Buddhist establishment just up the road between us and bendigo and I found them anything but conceited. I don’t thing the community have found them that way at all.
They have actually filled a big gap in this neighbourhood obviously as the temple seems to a throng of activity every time I drive by.
not being pickie but is my experience with buddhists
Nick, I think it may profit your education to live in, say Padstow or Lakemba, for a year, say, before you may realise the difference living in a Muslim community actually is.
Hi Ken, actually my late uncle I think provided a very good example when he left his post at Launceston Anglican in favour of Lakemba a few years back. Perhaps more of us should be challenged to think about making a similar move ourselves?
We look at the impending situation in Camden and say we don’t want this place to end up like Lakemba. Secular society wants a comfortable and easy existence but should that be our concern? This is not our home after all, we are exiles. Are we storing up treasure on earth?
Are we concerned about the spread of Islam? Yes. Why? Because Muslims need Jesus. Should christians take a not-in-my-backyard stance or try to legislate Muslims out of “our” area? I don’t think so. How do we combat Islam? We share the gospel. And we can’t do that unless christians are in contact and community with Muslims.
Ken Austin - 22 April 2009 04:20 PM
We need to view Muslims as people following an incorrect religion. We also need to be aware of the political aims of Islam. Hiding our heads in the sand will not solve the problem. Muslims will not co-exist with non-muslims if they have the numbers. They will persecute non-muslims, as history shows clearly in the countries where they have the population edge.
Then let us suffer for Christ and rejoice in our sufferings. :)
I noticed a status updated on Facebook from one of my sister’s (who’s in Indonesia) Indonesian Muslim friends, which was (with details changed):
[M] shouts to all her TTF-2 friends: GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU GUYS AND GIRLS!!!! DO THE BEST AND LET GOD DO THE REST!!! =).
Does that look like world domination to anyone? That’s the thing I wish more people understood (and frankly I’m only aware of it through my sister) - the Muslims there are more or less interchangeable with Christians here, except they’re probably better behaved and less self-involved.
What’s the gap between perception and reality? Ignorance.
the Muslims there are more or less interchangeable with Christians here, except they’re probably better behaved and less self-involved.
I guess I can find ways of reading what you say here that make sense- that is, as far as “normal” human interactions, Muslims and Christians and everybody else have their good and bad points, and Muslims on the whole are not worse than others.
But there are possible implications of what you say that I disagree strongly with. Muslims who are committed to their faith are not committed to the Lord Jesus, who is the only way of salvation, and hence are facing eternal condemnation (just as “ordinary” Aussies who are not committed to the Lord Jesus are also facing hell). To say that Muslims and Christians are “interchangeable” just seems to ignore this eternal destiny aspect. Or were you using the word “Christians” to mean “white Australians”? That would be quite wrong.
And I have to say that having, as I said before, lived in a Muslim country where the crowds can be “worked up” by the religious leaders into some fairly oppressive behaviour against Christians, not all is rosy in the Muslim world. There are some pretty scary stories of Muslims burning churches in Indonesia and India, and they are backed up by reliable, secular witnesses.
I just don’t want to swing to the opposite pendulum in this area. I believe we ought to welcome Muslim people into our neighbourhoods because they are people made in God’s image, and they need to hear the gospel of Jesus. But like the rest of us they are sinners and rebels against God, unless they are committed to following Jesus and being transformed by the work of the Holy Spirit. And someone who does have the Spirit of God transforming their lives is not “interchangeable” with someone who doesn’t.
I know of a Muslim friend who acts all peaceful and treats Christianity with more respect than other friends do. However, voices like these are well and truly drowned out by the Muslim extremists, and that’s what the average citizen sees through the media.
I can anticipate you saying the same for the Camden folk but they aren’t inciting violence are they? Cf immediately above quote:
There are some pretty scary stories of Muslims burning churches in Indonesia and India, and they are backed up by reliable, secular witnesses.
@ Mike
We have a Buddhist establishment just up the road between us and bendigo and I found them anything but conceited. I don’t thing the community have found them that way at all.
Well and good, but do they have a small amount of users at any one time (say 50) compared to the 1000+ proposed here? I’m guessing it’s the former, so the analogy isn’t exactly the same.
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