mightychurch.com

“But also remember, those in hell KEEP sinning, if I read the imagery in Revelation correctly. They KEEP on cursing God, and so keep deserving God’s wrath.”

Looks like I’ll be there cursing what he dealt me….....Gods wrath needs a look at in my opinion ........shame he doesn’t take advise as I’d like to give him some pointers how things could be run.

Treats and promises of punishment only get my back up! ........and punishment for what??? .....whole deal stinks of fixed I reckon. 
or should I take you guys at your word and cut the throats of my grandchildren while they are young and innocent and assured of getting to heaven?  I’m doomed apparently so at least I could do my off spring a favour and get them into eternal life in heaven.
That’s of course if I follow the logic here ......just had to say something as I read this stuff in wonder.
Do you have any idea where these beliefs of yours leave guys like myself ......exactly no where.
I thought if I told the truth and was always charitable to others I’d go to heaven ......I’ve always worked that way and yet it ain’t enough apparently. 
The way I see it he’s a pretty sad god that puts people through trials like I have been through ....I’d just like to know if giod averted his eyes each time Ayers abused me ........or what???
What sort of a God is that?? ........I can’t imagine anyone has an answer to that question which is the one I always ask myself.
i watched ‘Rendition’ last night ......my wife couldn’t watch and half way through said “Same attitude as the righteous arseholes that saw you off .....too gutless to face their mistakes!.......Sad isn’t it!” ....and she went to bed.

Hi David C,

 

How is God allowing the execution of His Son “just” if there was any other way to “just forgive” us?

Which is precisely why I think that understanding the atonement primarily through the lens of PSA is problematic.

Huh? PSA explains that there is this massive problem with sin that must be dealt with, and it is dealt with in Jesus death. If there was ANY other way to deal with it God should have taken that route, otherwise He murdered His own Son for nothing!

Hi Michael,

This world is so messed up precisely because we rebelled against God and declared ourselves to be king. Only problem is, a monarchy doesn’t really work when every citizen thinks THEY are the king. Or another way of looking at it is that we told God to get lost, and so he gave us our desire. He left us. We no longer “walk in the garden” with Him and no longer speak face to face with our King. Instead, we are left to deal with the consequences of our rebellion, which means dealing with each other. You seem to have personal experience of how horrific that can get.

We all want justice… we want those people that abused us like that to be dealt with, and the world to be cleaned up. The only problem is we are pretty blind as to how deep the problem really goes. We point at the rebellion and mess in everyone else’s life but are quick to ignore our own issues. If God came back to give us a “fair deal”, it would be to kick us out of His good Creation straight away. We’re enjoying His gifts but snubbing our noses at the Giver, and basically all deserve to be eternally banished from God straight away. We deserve it. In fact, we’ve all asked for it.

We are born sinful and selfish, and the only way any of us have any hope is because miraculously and surprisingly, God does the unexpected and gives us a second chance. But we can’t earn it. It’s a gift. Jesus paid the debt, and all I had to do was say “thank you”. Then God begins his life-long work of helping me get ready for living with Him in the new Kingdom.

Don’t miss out mate.

Hi Michael,
I had a notion you might post on this thread.

michael scull - 18 April 2009 09:45 AM

I thought if I told the truth and was always charitable to others I’d go to heaven .......

This is a misconception, but a common one I believe. 
 
Access to heaven is only through Jesus, who said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life.’

John 14:6 (New International Version)

6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 
And this is by believing in him.
 

John 3:16 (New International Version)

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 
It’s the same deal for everyone.

Why God has allowed your suffering I have no idea and have no right to speculate on.

.............. 
David,
Thanks for your thoughts.  I’ll think about them.

.............. 
I’m going away for a few days, so I won’t be reading or posting until I get back.
 
Cheers,
Ros

My mind goes to some of the students from my school that committed suicide and how unjust eternal hell is for them. No wonder they curse god from hell (as said earlier)

According to the logic here Christine Fosters daughters in hell .......and her other ones going.
No matter how I look at that I can’t see any loving god in there at all.
Gods acting like boy torturing an ants nest with a stick :(
Chrissie daughters don’t deserve eternal damnation which ever way you look at it.
I know you’d rather argue the ‘deep and meaningful’ .......but it doesn’t fit in the real world I don’t think!
There’s an outline of Chrissies story tagged in this other thread.
http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/forums/viewthread/3501/P225/

Just split this out to save the two issues running in one thread. Not totally clean split (sorry!) but hopefully a bit clearer.

Arthur also said in a post in the other topic:

As for people who are in hell and keeping on sinning, I would disagree based on the parable of Abraham and the rich man.  Rather, they’d be begging to get out of there (ala the rich man in the parable) but not being able to.

quote   “This is a misconception, but a common one I believe.’
Well thats just perfect then…..lived a misconception all my life. 

Thanks Luke ....I’m sorry my questions are just basic ones but this whole concept of belief is what I have trouble with. I’m the sceptic from hell (excuse the expression .....the censorship here cut’s my vocab down by 80% heheheheeee)
and never been able to shake it off although it has seen me ‘in work’ all my life. Every job I’ve had I ended up in development because I was always ‘honest’ about their stupid products.  After a life of doing this I can’t see how I can just accept something like this concept of believe in Jesus and that alone will safe you.
I’d love to have a chat with Jesus himself on this one ......a reasonable bloke would see that someone has made the game impossible for some to win.
I find Lily’s sentiments very true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6KYHGQKmOk  (an opportunity to exercise your cardiovascular and have a little jive around the office :D ......good for the soul too )

I guess one of the questions we have to ask ourselves is what kind of knowledge we are prepared to accept about these questions.

Science is limited to testing and experimenting on issues involving this universe / reality, and does that very nicely in some areas, but is not the only form of knowledge. If by definition we see God as “beyond / above” this universe in another dimension, then by definition science cannot comment on the existence or otherwise of God.

Metaphysics seems to play word games with arguments built on arguments about the possibilities of other universes / realities / the spiritual world, but I find much of it kind of “out there” and a little unconvincing.

On the other hand, there is another form of knowledge that we have access to that can be “good enough” to base our convictions on. One big difference between Christianity and other faiths is that it can be historically tested. For example, Mohammed might have claimed to “have a vision” and right down “stuff from God”, but there is no way to historically investigate those visions. On the other hand, Christianity puts his head on the ‘chopping block’ of history and invites us to investigate the claims Jesus made about Himself by the evidence around His resurrection. Something bizarre happened that Easter morning, and it changed the disciples from cowering runaways to bold evangelists. Many of these died for their beliefs, as have many martyrs for other faiths. But the difference here is they died not for their “leader’s vision” or “belief system”, but died stating that they had seen Jesus crucified, dead, buried, and then resurrected.

Check out this online movie mate… if you watch online movies?
http://www.publicchristianity.com/resvid1.html
See parts 1 2 and 3. Dr John Dickson is a mate… we’ve run up some design for him from time to time. He’s always entertaining, and you might have seen him on Channel 7 on Easter Friday?

Interestingly, Lily Allen’s album, and that song in particular has just been reviewed on Sydney Anglicans:
 

It’s Not Me, It’s You.
Craig Schwarze
April 22nd, 2009
Music critics are falling over themselves to praise Lilly Allen’s second album, It’s Not Me, It’s You. All the acclaim is deserved. Britain’s mouthy little electropop princess has produced a record that is highly creative and very entertaining.

Producer Greg Kursten has done a superb job with the music, but it is Allen’s killer lyrics that really carry the day. She writes with violent honesty and complete shamelessness. It’s like an extreme close-up of the GenY soul, and no-one is wearing makeup. Allen has plenty to say about sex, drugs, money, fame and just about everything else. She’s a girl with some opinions, and maybe even some answers.
Perhaps the best track on the album is Him, a song about God -

And if there is some kind of god do you think he’s pleased
When he looks down on us I wonder what he sees
Do you think he’d think the things we do are a waste of time
Maybe he’d think we are getting on just fine
Do you think he’s skint or financially secure
And come election time I wonder who he’d vote for…

Do you think he’d drive in his car without insurance
Now is he interesting or do you think he’d bore us
Do you think his favourite type of human is caucasian
Do you reckon he’s ever been done for tax evasion
Do you think he’s any good at remembering people’s names
Do you think he’s ever taken smack or cocaine
 
Some of the lines seem a bit silly, but I think Allen has a genuine desire to understand God. Sadly, she seems to think that God is finally unknowable, and we are left with nothing more than questions and idle speculation. I hope this is not the end of Allen’s quest for God, but that she will turn her sharp mind to consider the man Jesus Christ. There she will find the Answer to her questions - and also the great Question to all her answers.

link

I was wondering at the relevance of this post and then when reading the last few paragraphs of the song realised that it’s picking up on some of Michael’s questions.

The great “Question” to all her answers… yes, we do find ourselves assuming knowledge or “answers” that Jesus seem to have the unique ability to bust wide open again.

I’ve downloaded the vid the other day Dave thankyou .....but haven’t had time to scratch myself .....will have a look now ;)

Lots may think this cornie but trust me it is so on the money with the lyrics in this silly little tune.
Not a bad way in with some of these kids i meet .....bit of a conversation starter.
Lots of kids I meet waste their w/end off their heads on weed ...not just a little bent but stoned out of their minds (and their parents wouldn’t have a clue)
Lily’s Alfie

Lyrics to Alfie :
Ooooo deary me,
My little brother’s in his bedroom smoking weed,
I tell him he should get up cos it’s nearly half past three
He can’t be bothered cos he’s high on THC.
I ask him very nicely if he’d like a cup of tea,
I can’t even see him cos the room is so smoky,
Don’t understand how one can watch so much TV,
My baby brother Alfie how I wish that you could see.

[Chorus]
Oooooo I only say it cos I care,
So please can you stop pulling my hair.
Now, now there’s no need to swear,
Please don’t despair my dear Mon frere.

Ooooo Alfie get up it’s a brand new day,
I just can sit back and watch you waste your life away
You need to get a job because the bills need to get paid.
Get off your lazy arse,
Alfie please use your brain
Surely there’s some walls out there that you can go and spray,
I’m feeling guilty for leading you astray,
Now how the hell do you ever expect that you’ll get laid,
When all you do is stay and play on your computer games?

[Chorus]

Oh little brother please refrain from doing that,
I’m trying to help you out so can you stop being a twat.
It’s time that you and I sat down and had a little chat,
And look me in the eyes take off that stupid fitted cap