mightychurch.com

An opinion I read on charismatic theology (hmm is that an oxy moron) got me wondering about cessationist theology.

I’m not a charismatic and the few expressions of such worship I have seen made me suspect emotional manipulation and the power of suggestion rather than the work of the Holy Spirit but I remain open to the idea that God can work in any way He sees fit.

I understand cessationist theology to suggest that God won’t work through things like prophesy, speaking in tongues or other supernatural things.  Is this a correct understanding of cessationism (I"m not sure how to spell that word d’uh is that correct?) and if so what is the biblical support for this view?

Hi Melinda.
Cessationism was fine, but prophecy needs a C! [Like practice the noun and practise the verb.]

I think some cessationists would say that modern day “speaking in tongues” appears to be gibberish, whereas speaking in tongues in the Bible is speaking in foreign languages.

I also think cessationists would agree with you that God can work in any way he sees fit, and would not say that God does not do miracles today or other supernatural things, but that he doesn’t have apostles today to authenticate through signs, as he did in the days immediately following Jesus’ death, resurrection, ascension and exaltation.

I don’t think there is a lot of clear support for cessationism in the New Testament, though it does seem that the heirs of the apostles are in a different category to the apostles themselves. Some people argue from the first few verses of Hebrews 2 that the miracles seen in the apostles days should not be expected today.

I think the argument from 1 Corinthians 13:10 about the perfect having come is a weak one, and does not seem to be a fair exegesis of that passage, which seems to be talking about the eternal state and not the present day.

I think some subtlety is needed. I believe that God still can and does act in every way he did in the lives of the first Christians. But will I believe you if you tell me your random gift is from the Spirit? Probably not. In my experience those who’ve claimed the miraculous fall way short of it, their medical miracles aren’t medically impossible, their tongues don’t lift up fellow believers, their prophecies seem inconsistent with God’s revealed plan etc…

Dannii Willis - 09 April 2009 07:31 PM

I think some subtlety is needed. I believe that God still can and does act in every way he did in the lives of the first Christians. But will I believe you if you tell me your random gift is from the Spirit? Probably not. In my experience those who’ve claimed the miraculous fall way short of it, their medical miracles aren’t medically impossible, their tongues don’t lift up fellow believers, their prophecies seem inconsistent with God’s revealed plan etc…

Subtle as a meat cleaver Danni!

It’s interesting that you’re building an argument about the work of the spirit based on your experience.  WHat’s the “subtle” difference between your approach and that of the charos who claim that in their experience they have seen miraculous cures and uplifting prophecies etc? Their experience, must surely be as valid as yours?

Because the cures they tell us about generally are nowhere near miraculous, and well, who cares about uplifting prophecies. As I said, tongues must build up the church, and prophecies must be consistent with God’s revealed word and plan.

When was the last time you went to a charo meeting and people with severe birth deformities, like spina bifida or cerebal palsy, were healed? How many people with terminal cancer had their systems completely cleaned of all cancer?

I know it could happen, and I hope it will, and praise God if that is your experience. But in mine, people don’t get healed and instead get told they don’t have enough faith.

Dannii, , my experience of charismatic worship seems not dissimilar from yours.  I think you miss the point of my opening post. though,  I was asking about cessationist theology, not a discussion of people’s experience of charismatic worship,.  One might not believe that spiritual gifts ceased in the Apostolic age but that doesn’t necessarily mean you have to believe that all charismatic claims of miracles or prophecies are to be believed as the work of the Holy Spirit either.

Evangelicals, often criticise any theology that is based on personal experience, so if I"m to adopt an Evanglical approach, I can’t support the idea that the gifts of the spirit ceased after the Apostolic age just because I may not have seen those gifts displayed to my satisfaction, I would think I’d need a biblical approach, so I"m looking for a scriptural justification to support cessationism, not just personal opinion about charismatic phenomena..

Yeah I understand you.

In my mind it is a question about whether a distinction between the “sensational” gifts and the others can be justified by scripture. Noone can deny that we still have teachers and leaders and even prophets (if you accept the speaking of God’s word to society as the major role of a prophet, not future telling…), so we know that the spirit is still active and still gives gifts.

If you can justify a distinction between the gifts, then sure, have some form of cessationist theology for some of the gifts, but if you can’t then we must believe that the spirit still gives all the gifts today…

David McKay - 08 April 2009 07:41 PM

Hi Melinda.
Cessationism was fine, but prophecy needs a C! [Like practice the noun and practise the verb.]

I think some cessationists would say that modern day “speaking in tongues” appears to be gibberish, whereas speaking in tongues in the Bible is speaking in foreign languages.

I also think cessationists would agree with you that God can work in any way he sees fit, and would not say that God does not do miracles today or other supernatural things, but that he doesn’t have apostles today to authenticate through signs, as he did in the days immediately following Jesus’ death, resurrection, ascension and exaltation.

I don’t think there is a lot of clear support for cessationism in the New Testament, though it does seem that the heirs of the apostles are in a different category to the apostles themselves. Some people argue from the first few verses of Hebrews 2 that the miracles seen in the apostles days should not be expected today.

Interesting…

Hebrews 1
1Long ago in many ways and at many times God’s prophets spoke his message to our ancestors. 2But now at last, God sent his Son to bring his message to us. God created the universe by his Son, and everything will someday belong to the Son. 3God’s Son has all the brightness of God’s own glory and is like him in every way. By his own mighty word, he holds the universe together.

  After the Son had washed away our sins, he sat down at the right side [a] of the glorious God in heaven. 4He had become much greater than the angels, and the name he was given is far greater than any of theirs.

Yes, it could indicate that. I think more than anything it’s John Woodhouse’s clear articles on “Word and Spirit” available from The Briefing that ties together the “Sufficiency of Scripture” with God’s Spirit and how these fulfil our needs for direction, making any further “prophecy” unnecessary.

As for other gifts, I think the point about 1 Corinthians gifts passages is one of simple agnosticism. What are they? Is a “gift of healing” an instantaneous miraculous healing as per Jesus or the Apostles, or is it more like my son having Leukaemia but after 6 months of medical treatment looking like he was going to make it, and finally after 5 years still being cancer free (and in remission)? Try define it, and back up your definition of these gifts from the bible. It ain’t easy.

As for tongues, grab a coffee and have a good long read of this article. Then read it again in a week.
http://www.alliancenet.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086|CHID560462|CIID1415640,00.html

then try this one.

http://www.alliancenet.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086|CHID560462|CIID1415642,00.html

So what are these gifts again? ;-)  It’s not so much that we know the “gifts” of 1 Corinthians have “ceased”, but what were they in the first place?